65 replies to this topic

[Fredways]

Originally posted by drv4truk
Well, how did Song or Ted get the aircraft, support services, etc. to run their airlines? They didn't just magically appear.

Read up on Frank Lorenzo and CO/EA.

[hpscot08]

Well, the Song in this game bought all of its a/c:D, but in real life it sgo them from its owner, Delta!

[braniffops]

With regard to Ted, UAL already had the A320's in the fleet. They didn't have to buy any others. They simply took them offline when they rotated into SFO for scheduled maintenance, and then converted them to an all-Y configuration.

UA spent more money MARKETING Ted then they did for anything else involved in the start up of the airline.

[PacificEcho]

Originally posted by drv4truk
Well, how did Song or Ted get the aircraft, support services, etc. to run their airlines? They didn't just magically appear.

Um.. Song (Owned by Delta) Already had their 757's..
Ted (Owned by United) already had their A320's.. so what's your point?

Song ramp agents, delta agents, ticket agents, are all Delta. Same with Ted, it's all United. They were already there, all they did was pull those aircraft out of the regular Delta rotation and put them on the low cost division of the airline. That's why Song flights are 1950 flight numbers and up, and that's why Song aircraft are registered to Delta, and that's also why Song's 757's bear the same N-number as it did when it flew on a Delta mainland flight.. they just repainted the plane.. so what's your point?

[Fredways]

Originally posted by PacificEcho

Song ramp agents, delta agents, ticket agents, are all Delta. Same with Ted, it's all United. They were already there, all they did was pull those aircraft out of the regular Delta rotation and put them on the low cost division of the airline. That's why Song flights are 1950 flight numbers and up, and that's why Song aircraft are registered to Delta, and that's also why Song's 757's bear the same N-number as it did when it flew on a Delta mainland flight.. they just repainted the plane.. so what's your point?

And it's why Song and Ted aren't really low cost carriers and don't save much money for the parent airline.

[ealvarez]

if you wanted to start up your own real airline, you could either get the support of a major airline, unlikely, but it has happend before, and youll also need some major backers to start you up. unless you happen to be a multi millionare/billionare already

theyre not just gonna give you everything to start up, youll usually need to contract a few flight service companies at first, unless you can afford your own ground crews, tends to be cheaper for start up's to use flight service comapnies. theyll already have all the equipment and crews then youll also need your planes and also be able to rent your gates. not to mention all the airport fees on top of that, landing fees, airport usage, etc..

does AE charge landing fees btw? if not, be glad it hasnt been added, not exactly cheap

with 5 million to start up in the real world, you wont be getting anywhere. youll be able to get your own private jet, thats about it. lol

btw, if your in the US. if you really want to know what it takes to start one up, just write the airlines or the FAA a letter saying your doing some research on the subject and would like that info. theyll send you it freedom of information act allows you to do so. when i was in the civil air patrol i had my cadets write the airlines, airports and the FAA all the time. usually theyll get back to you quickly, sometimes take alittle longer, but they will get back to you

[Edited on 7/5/2005 by ealvarez]

[Sunshine Airways CEO]

also, keep the language down racingboy13

[PacificEcho]

Originally posted by Fredways
And it's why Song and Ted aren't really low cost carriers and don't save much money for the parent airline.

Um, they weren't designed to 'save' money for the parent airline, they were designed to fly direct routes on high density domestic flights in their region for a lower cost than it's competitors. For Delta, it's main competitor was Southwest and JetBlue. It created Song, and now Song flys up and down the east coast flying to popular vacation and strategic business routes operated by other airlines with a good fleet that didn't demand a high seat cost. By lowering fares, airlines are able to attract customers that end up paying less up front, instead of paying more by going through a hub like Cincinati or Atlanta. This keeps revenue up becuase most passengers on vacation, especially business passengers, prefer to go direct. This saves money because the aircraft doesn't have to worry about landing fees and refueling, which takes time and wastes money.. this right there saves the airline money. As far as Southwest goes, Song isn't cheaper, but it doesn't need to be. 757's carry more than SWA's biggest plane, the 737-700. Song's fleet carries more than 50 more people, and is able to fly further, and most importantly, is able to carry more cargo. Cargo revenues is still a big income on airlines, especially for Song since Song flys to San Juan a few times a day, LAX a few times a day, JFK, LGA, EWR, BOS, BDL, LAS, MCO, TPA, MIA... passenger traffic and cargo traffic is a big player on these popular routes, which until TED and Song were created, most of those routes were dominated by Jetblue and Southwest.

So it did save the airlines money. But you can save money in one department and still loose money in another. Delta is in the verge of filing for bankruptcy protection becuase Delta is still loosing money.. but not because of it's lower cost airlines, but probably because of the ever increasing rise in fuel costs, and the massive amount of competition in the US market. This kinda sounds familiar to Ae doesn't it? It's the same thing. Passengers don't magically appear.. and it all depends on where you can sacrifice profit to attract customers and decrease spending to increase profits.. it's something very very very hard to do, obviously since most of the major airlines are in this same situation.

[Maestro69]

Nice essay there PacificEcho. Looks like someone has been studying the US Airline industry of late!!!!! (j/k)

[Edited on 6-7-05 by Maestro69]

[Fredways]

Originally posted by PacificEcho
snip

Actually fares on Song are not realistically lower than what was paid by those same target market segments when they were flying mainline Delta. Song was an effort (as is Ted) to pare costs in an order to pair better with the fares. Utilizing a fleet segment, though without lower operating costs aside from some incremental revenue gained through concession sales, however at the cost of the few high fares they would have sold on that route under the former pricing scheme, with the same facilities and personnel costs provides nothing other than a different marketing image at the same cost to the airline. See Delta Express. See Continental Lite. See MetroJet. See United Shuttle. They all failed before for the same reasons. Delta has publicly stated they aren't completely pleased with Song. It has a product better than regular Delta, which has helped to compete with airlines like jetBlue and AirTran on the price-sensitive leisure routes where some level of marketing past simple pricing has practicality.

The routes where Song concentrates aren't gaining any significant market share over previous Delta traffic, especially in relation to the additional passengers gained through jetBlue/Southwest/AirTran service additions and pricing competition stimulating greater passenger numbers in the markets. All Song has done is take the same low-fare people who were flying Delta in the first place and stick them on a single flight with one another, rather than connecting through the Delta system (and many of these markets already had non-stops anyway). Grinstein has said he isn't pleased with the effect of Song. In isolation, CASM of Song's fleet (when at 36 aircraft) was about 20% lower than that of the other B757s. However, most of that was through increased utilization and efficiency changes which carriers like US Airways, American, etc., are implementing throughout (and Delta is trying to do) thus lowering fleetwide CASM. Of course in isolation the Song CASM will appear lower, but the overall effect on Delta has been minimal. Though, admittedly, the greatest value Song has for Delta is that it's an operable case study where Delta may try new techniques and operations in isolation to judge them without implementing across the entire Delta operation.

Ted has done an even worse job. At least most Song markets still have a "legacy" and premium product available (with a more rationalized pricing structure). United has taken Ted and completely alienated the high yielding traffic by making many markets completely Ted. Furthermore, they haven't put Ted into as complete a segment as Delta with Song and operationally the aircraft/crews of Ted/United swap and cause further product inconsistencies.

Simplifares have done more to stimulate Delta traffic growth... such as CVG traffic up over 13% versus the same periods last year. However, the revenue effects have yet to be seen.

[miller22 (inactive)]

Originally posted by B777
drv4truk, i hv the same case of yours, but even worse all my planes were taken away without giving me chance to explain.
i spent hrs of time in building up my airline, owning a few new airbuses (not a single from public market except a few Beeches at my initial stage of my airline), but wht i get at last is an insulting message saying that "NO CHEAT 4U"

Feel extremely disappointed with the admin. Is there any clear definition of CHEATING in this game?? buy low sell high is just a normal action in business world, but is it the same in this empire?? i doubt...


I am not putting anger on any admin of this game, as they spend time looking after the game n also their airline, we should thank for their work instead. But wht i think there should be a list that clearly shows the actions which would make the game admin feel unhappy or simply, engage the so called Anti-cheat software.

You're absolutely right about the game rules. We do need to put them down on "paper." I'd like for the rules to be a conglomerate of what the players think they should be. Perhaps start a new thread with suggested rules?

[EuropAir]

I was really disappointed with the lack of supervision in this game.

Unfortunately you are absolutely right, there is no (or not enough) supervision in this game, lack of rules, and too much people who 'think' they know something about aviation and bash off people.

I've been playing this game from the beginning and the major problems remain unsolved.

[Atlantic_Air]

Yeah, i mostly agree with everyone, but maybe there should be an inquiry session by the moderators or a committee if ther really keen on having people not cheat, for them to decide if that person was cheating or not. It's fair.

[Edited on 7/7/2005 by Atlantic_Air]

[Edited on 7/7/2005 by Atlantic_Air]

[piercey]

First and formost off, condolences if you know anyone or if you are in London right know, thats got to be heck right now.

Next, definatly have a third set of mods that watch over the game. As I said before, miller, your great at making the game, but there is no such thing as one man army, that and it looks like the software is overreacting, remember that programs don't have brains and can't reason as well as a real person can.

edit for speling:P

[Edited on 7/7/2005 by piercey]

[Tump]

Don't blame this team. I see that the circumstances on these forums are improving and getting to where they should be, in-game its a different story of course. I understand though that miller is not someone else letting into the game for admin purposes, cause when he does so he basically gives away his coding and other important and sometimes private rooms (ftp) - and believe me, it would require a lot of coding to create a program that allows remote adminning here

[piercey]

CX138-Remember, mods=fourms, miller=game.

[ealvarez]

Very good point there...and there are a lot more things that should be done but no action being taken while they just go off and decide to do random things without consulting people...what a moderating team!!

this coming from a member of an alliance that was filled with cheaters? i love it. it wasnt random, they knew who was cheating, most of them even admitted they were. as for no warnings? are you kidding? how many times did everyone on here warn them of theyre cheating, way too many times. unfortunately they got into the attitude that nothing was ever going to be done about it, got too cocky for theyre own good.

[Maestro69]

I wonder what CX138 is talking about??!!!

The moderators are in charge to take care of the forums and keep everything clean and nice and that nobody says anything offensive to others. The last time i checked, we never had access to the script, only Miller does and so therefore, before u post something, get ur info right mate.

And as ealvarez has mentioned, there has been plenty of warnings in the forums about which ways are considered cheating, so unless u were hidding in a cave, u would have read them in different threads in the forums. So whoever got reset or kicked out, it was done becuase they were found to be cheating within AE by Miller and thus, paid the price of ignorance!!!