65 replies to this topic

[ziliu]

My humble opinion:

If an airline A does not operate with a goal of making profit for itself, but solely exists in order to somehow raise the profit of a second airline B, A is considered cheating. If however, A and B operate for mutual advantage, the are simply having an alliance.

And mods: I think there is a point in what drv4truk, soundisgood and others said; there should be some kind of rules stating what is cheating and what is not. Yes, Miller has said alot on those subjects, but it isn't always easy to find what he has said. So why not just put a sticky somewhere with at least a draft of the rules of AE?

[drv4truk]

Originally posted by Crazy764
----------------------------------------------------------

And for those who still don't understand how allies can help each other cheat, I'll give this example again:

Player 1 creates Airline A (primary) and Airline B (feeder).
Player 2 creates Airline C (primary) and Airline D (feeder).

Player 1 sells Airline B's planes for 50% price to Player 2's Airline C.
Player 2 sells Airline D's planes for 50% price to Player 1's Airline A.
[Edited on 7/4/2005 by Crazy764]

You have a good imagination and I can see where some people may be doing this. But, just because someone is selling aircraft below value doesn't mean they are cheating. If that is an issue than maybe the % of value that aircraft can be bought and sold for should be changed, especially for the higher priced aircraft.

When the alliance I was in was smaller, the bigger and more profitable members would sell aircraft at a discount (yes up to 50% of value) to other alliance members. The idea was not to rape our partners, but to give them a fair shot at purchasing cheap aircraft so they could make more money in their own areas.

[Maestro69]

See, this is my problem:

U managed to buy 5 beeches within 3 mins tops and all at around $2.5 mil. Unless im mistaken, im regularly online, especailly on AE and its very hard for me to swallow the fact u found 5 beeches at that price. It would seem unreasonable to assume anyone would sell that low becuase most beeches would have been around the $5 mil mark.

Thats just my thoughts on the issue here, which was presented on the AE forum.

[ziliu]

Originally posted by Maestro69
See, this is my problem:

U managed to buy 5 beeches within 3 mins tops and all at around $2.5 mil. Unless im mistaken, im regularly online, especailly on AE and its very hard for me to swallow the fact u found 5 beeches at that price. It would seem unreasonable to assume anyone would sell that low becuase most beeches would have been around the $5 mil mark.

Thats just my thoughts on the issue here, which was presented on the AE forum.

Agreed. Have you responded to the message yet, drv4truk?

[dhc_chipmunk]

Originally posted by drv4truk

Originally posted by Crazy764
----------------------------------------------------------

And for those who still don't understand how allies can help each other cheat, I'll give this example again:

Player 1 creates Airline A (primary) and Airline B (feeder).
Player 2 creates Airline C (primary) and Airline D (feeder).

Player 1 sells Airline B's planes for 50% price to Player 2's Airline C.
Player 2 sells Airline D's planes for 50% price to Player 1's Airline A.
[Edited on 7/4/2005 by Crazy764]

You have a good imagination and I can see where some people may be doing this. But, just because someone is selling aircraft below value doesn't mean they are cheating. If that is an issue than maybe the % of value that aircraft can be bought and sold for should be changed, especially for the higher priced aircraft.

When the alliance I was in was smaller, the bigger and more profitable members would sell aircraft at a discount (yes up to 50% of value) to other alliance members. The idea was not to rape our partners, but to give them a fair shot at purchasing cheap aircraft so they could make more money in their own areas.

AGAIN, read carefully!
What Will (Crazy764) said was about ONE player owning TWO or more airlines. He wasn't directing at sales between alliance members

[drv4truk]

Originally posted by Maestro69
See, this is my problem:

U managed to buy 5 beeches within 3 mins tops and all at around $2.5 mil. Unless im mistaken, im regularly online, especailly on AE and its very hard for me to swallow the fact u found 5 beeches at that price. It would seem unreasonable to assume anyone would sell that low becuase most beeches would have been around the $5 mil mark.

Thats just my thoughts on the issue here, which was presented on the AE forum.

Well, we can't all be on AE 24/7. My bad for finding these aircraft so cheap. By the time I found the first one, relisted it for $5M+, the second one showed up. From there I just kept going as they showed up. Hoping the whole time that the guy selling wasn't going to flood the market with 10+ at 2.5M, because I didn't want to be stuck with too many aircraft to sell.

Yes, I responded already and was told that my purchases were legal (Really???). Maybe the Admin can step forward and tell us the name of the airline that sold all of those aircraft at 50% of value. That way you guys can ask him why he sold for under value.

[ziliu]

Originally posted by drv4truk
Explain:

07/03/05 21:27:12,1223,Beech 1900D,7,5020619.4111283,2027,821,2510310,public
07/03/05 21:27:35,2369,Beech 1900D,6,5457195.012096,2027,821,2728598,public
07/03/05 21:27:55,3148,Beech 1900D,6,5457195.012096,2027,821,2728598,public
07/03/05 21:28:12,3442,Beech 1900D,6,5457195.012096,2027,821,2728598,public
07/03/05 21:29:41,3443,Beech 1900D,6,5457195.012096,2027,821,2728598,public

Am I the only one who suspects 2027 and 821 are the ID's of the buying and selling airlines (not necessarily respectively). Seems like the info anti-cheating software would include in its database. I can't get into my account, but could someone check who www.airlineempires.net/playerinfo.php?player=2027 and www.airlineempires.net/playerinfo.php?player=821 are? And drv4truk, are any of those your airline?

Edit:formatting
Edit:spelling
[Edited on 7/5/2005 by ziliu]

[Edited on 7/5/2005 by ziliu]

[doug_Or]

821 = Royal Ibaglian Airways

[Crazy764]

Originally posted by dhc_chipmunk

Originally posted by drv4truk

You have a good imagination and I can see where some people may be doing this. But, just because someone is selling aircraft below value doesn't mean they are cheating. If that is an issue than maybe the % of value that aircraft can be bought and sold for should be changed, especially for the higher priced aircraft.

When the alliance I was in was smaller, the bigger and more profitable members would sell aircraft at a discount (yes up to 50% of value) to other alliance members. The idea was not to rape our partners, but to give them a fair shot at purchasing cheap aircraft so they could make more money in their own areas.

AGAIN, read carefully!
What Will (Crazy764) said was about ONE player owning TWO or more airlines. He wasn't directing at sales between alliance members

Thank you dhc_chipmunk, I was seriously close to saying something that would have probably gotten me banned. It's just so frustrating when you explain something so simple and self-explanatory five times, and the other party still doesn't understand. So thanks!

[piercey]

Alright, leave the poor guy alone. If it was private, we'd talk about possible cheating, but it's public. I found two beaches on public once for three mil. and had a field day .

[drv4truk]

Originally posted by Crazy764
Cheating is buying cheap planes from other airlines you own, or other airlines your allies/friends own.

You said it.

[drv4truk]

Originally posted by ziliu
Am I the only one who suspects 2027 and 821 are the ID's of the buying and selling airlines (not necessarily respectively). Seems like the info anti-cheating software would include in its database. I can't get into my account, but could someone check who www.airlineempires.net/playerinfo.php?player=2027 and www.airlineempires.net/playerinfo.php?player=821 are? And drv4truk, are any of those your airline?

Yep, I'm Pacific Southwest Air. Now, if someone is really worried about it they will go ask Royal Ibaglian why he sold those aircraft so cheap.

[Fredways]

Makes complete sense to sell Beechcraft (spell it right, piercey or whatever your name is) for below "book value."

The market is presently flooded with a wide range of available B1900D aircraft, mostly at book value or above. Placing multiple aircraft into the already saturated market at the same price won't yield quick sales. Some aircraft sit on there for real-time days. All that while, they aren't scheduled and aren't making any money. Maybe one prefers to just sell the aircraft cheaply to get the cash? Using that money to move up the order of a larger/better aircraft or to secure slots of increasing rarity probably makes more sense for some people than waiting longer for slightly more money.

[Crazy764]

Originally posted by drv4truk

Originally posted by Crazy764
Cheating is buying cheap planes from other airlines you own, or other airlines your allies/friends own.

You said it.

Yes I did:

"...OTHER airlines your allies/friends own. "

With that, I meant a secondary/feeder/one-other-than-their-main-airline airline that an "ally" owns.

Ziliu explained it very well:
"If an airline A does not operate with a goal of making profit for itself, but solely exists in order to somehow raise the profit of a second airline B, A is considered cheating. "

And I did too:
"So if your "ally" creates a secondary airline just to sell planes for cheap to you, that's cheating!"

"Therefore, anyone who benefits from the creation of multiple airlines (by channeling the funds/aircraft through ANY means) is CHEATING."

"Player 1 creates Airline A (primary) and Airline B (feeder).
Player 2 creates Airline C (primary) and Airline D (feeder).

Player 1 sells Airline B's planes for 50% price to Player 2's Airline C.
Player 2 sells Airline D's planes for 50% price to Player 1's Airline A.

That is cheating."

The key here is one person owning more than one airline, and their main airline benefiting from the existence of the secondary airline through sacrificing the latter. Because of IP tracking, this process can often no longer be carried out by a single player, so an "ally" is often enlisted to channel the funds/aircraft.

[Crazy764]

Originally posted by Fredways
Makes complete sense to sell Beechcraft (spell it right, piercey or whatever your name is) for below "book value."

The market is presently flooded with a wide range of available B1900D aircraft, mostly at book value or above. Placing multiple aircraft into the already saturated market at the same price won't yield quick sales. Some aircraft sit on there for real-time days. All that while, they aren't scheduled and aren't making any money. Maybe one prefers to just sell the aircraft cheaply to get the cash? Using that money to move up the order of a larger/better aircraft or to secure slots of increasing rarity probably makes more sense for some people than waiting longer for slightly more money.

OMG...if a player is doing that with their main airline, no problem. They are free to do whatever.

If a player creates a second airline to do that (to help others, usually for something in return for their main airline), then that's cheating!

[Fredways]

Originally posted by Crazy764

OMG...if a player is doing that with their main airline, no problem. They are free to do whatever.

If a player creates a second airline to do that (to help others, usually for something in return for their main airline), then that's cheating!

Like totally OMG! And other teeny bopper internet expressions galore! LOL! IIRC! ASL!


With regards to sale of aircraft between different subsidiaries, some of which exist solely to transfer aircraft and assets between two larger companies, it's nothing that doesn't go on daily in the real business world, namely the airline industry.

[davidt]

Woah woah woah - selling aircraft below value is cheating? Selling aircraft between friendly airlines is cheating?

This is going a bit far - if i locked up every person on CS who sells ac at friendly prices there's be nobody left

Also - to prevent multiple airlines miller could do what I did with CS - request people email me telling me why they want an account. It certainly picks out the dedicated fans from the riff raff

[Crazy764]

Originally posted by Fredways

Originally posted by Crazy764

OMG...if a player is doing that with their main airline, no problem. They are free to do whatever.

If a player creates a second airline to do that (to help others, usually for something in return for their main airline), then that's cheating!

Like totally OMG! And other teeny bopper internet expressions galore! LOL! IIRC! ASL!


With regards to sale of aircraft between different subsidiaries, some of which exist solely to transfer aircraft and assets between two larger companies, it's nothing that doesn't go on daily in the real business world, namely the airline industry.

Hey Mr. Smart @$$, why don't you read this reply I wrote earlier before making further retarded comments?

Maybe you should use your brain and remember that this games leaves lots of room for people to exploit its shortcommings, and therefore cannot be completely paralleled to the real world market.

In this game, a player can just "sign up" to new airlines, and be given 2 planes and $5 million. Said player can then channel these funds and aircraft to their primary airline through ip changes, allies, friends, etc.

Real world airlines can't do this. They aren't given the starting capital or the planes. They have to earn their money. They can't just click a button and be given another 5 million bucks and two planes.

Therefore, anyone who benefits from the creation of multiple airlines (by channeling the funds/aircraft through ANY means) is CHEATING.

If an airline CEO in the real world wants to create a subsidiary, he has to spend money to buy planes, etc.

In this game, players just click a few mouse clicks and are supplied with new planes and some cash.

THIS IS A VITAL DIFFERENCE!

In this game, players can create as many new airlines as they want, and be given as many free planes as they want, which they can then transfer to their primary airline.

Explain to me how a real world airline can do that?

And this transfer process is usually done by selling these GIVEN aircraft grossly under value. And THAT constitutes cheating.

It's common sense. It's self-explanatory. And Miller has explicitly stated it.

--------------------------------------

Cheating is one thing.
But trying to excuse or justify cheating is another.

[Edited on 7/5/2005 by Crazy764]

[drv4truk]

Well, how did Song or Ted get the aircraft, support services, etc. to run their airlines? They didn't just magically appear.