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Would yoou immigrate to the US, England (not Wales, NI, or Scot.), Netherlands, or Germany knowing you cost 7,000 a year for 3 years!!!

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#21
Stevphfeniey

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Well back on the subject of "the government paying money for immigrants", I'd (again) bring up the point that many immigrants are just working people like the rest of us. ie: they come to the US or Europe or whatever for work, they work, pay taxes, and live merry lives wherever they've settled. Sure there's some cost in there somewhere, but if they just do as the Romans do, it should be more or less alright from a monetary standpoint. 

 

For example: my mother followed my father after his tour with the air force in Japan ended, and to this day she hasn't become a US citizen. Does this mean she's a drain on the country's financial system causing turmoil? Of course not, she works (well, not now, but we've just moved to another time zone), she pays tax in the US, she pays her dues. Basically aside from getting her Japanese passport renewed every few years or so, she's not much a drain on the system more than anybody else. If anything my father the US citizen and DoD employee who gets the government to flip the bill for moving expenses every few years or so is a bigger drain. 


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#22
un1

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Woah what happened here. :mellow:

I must admit, you all should be incredibly proud for going back on topic. :D

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#23
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That's not be point Steve, the point is the government should be picking up the coats of these expenses be aide they sure can spend 340 million on pickle development, and reckless spending which is over 4 billion a year! Stop hurting the working class and thy should help us out. Or they should cut the costs of immigrants, 21,000 is very high to me..

#24
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 Explain these cost you keep talking about...........are you talking about college costs? You have never made yourself clear on what costs you are talking about.

 

 Or are you looking for immigrants to pay 1 dollar for what you pay 5 dollars for?

 

 I still dispute the whole class thingy you all quote. I use the old class definition as in my dad was a mason, so I have to be a mason. I can never move above my class. This is America, everyone has the chance to go from rags to a mansion. Hence there is no class in the US.

 

 I was born to a stay at home mom, my dad worked a freight dock his whole career, yet I own my own company and live extremely comfortable compared to what my parents back then. I could technically retire today and maintain my living standards until age 72 but would be hurting bad after that, so I keep working.



#25
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Well back on the subject of "the government paying money for immigrants", I'd (again) bring up the point that many immigrants are just working people like the rest of us. ie: they come to the US or Europe or whatever for work, they work, pay taxes, and live merry lives wherever they've settled. Sure there's some cost in there somewhere, but if they just do as the Romans do, it should be more or less alright from a monetary standpoint.

It's not though.

For illegal immigrants in particular, the net cost of government expenditures is higher than the net benefit taken in from taxes paid.

>>>>>
Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.

If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.

Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.

Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.

The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.

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#26
Bilal

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 Correct, I am an American but I have been to some of the poorest of the poor in my years in the military and will say that our definition of poor is hilarious. Our "poor" live better than 50% of the world's population.

 

 Most of Afghanistan lives on less than 2 dollars a day...................Iraq is a little better as they make 3-4 dollars a day. I watched Iraqi and Afghan's line up for a job hand shovel crap out of stopped up pipes for 2 dollar's a day and would get in a fist fight for the job.

 

 You might want to check your facts before you toss BS at folks who have been there and watched it. And the US Census is not the greatest source. Most is slanted to an extent.

 

 And before you say the word idiot again, might want to go look in the mirror. I see a bunch of "book smart" people on the internet that have no damn clue what they are talking about. Sort of like your whole rant about let the Gov pay for crap without realizing it is YOU the taxpayer paying for all those immigrants and beenies you want given away.

 

 Forgot to add, try learning to read first.......I stated that 1% were the true poor. You know the poor dude that lives under the bridge, digs thru the trash for a meal, wears a pair of shoes that are wrapped in duct tape, the true poor. Not the ones that make 18,000 a year and then collect an addit

You're right in a lot of 3rd world countries there aren't government handouts



#27
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That's not be point Steve, the point is the government should be picking up the coats of these expenses be aide they sure can spend 340 million on pickle development, and reckless spending which is over 4 billion a year! Stop hurting the working class and thy should help us out. Or they should cut the costs of immigrants, 21,000 is very high to me..

 

How many times do we have to tell you. 

 

You are not listening.

 

As explained, it is very simple.

 

The money (or virtually all of it) the government gets is generated through taxes.

 

The money raised from Taxes are then used by the government for their annual budgets, to decide how much the Education sector is allocated, the public services, etc.

 

For the "government to pick up the costs" would mean either, the government increasing the tax rate, which unless you're stupid can clearly see would not go down well, or to cut back on spending in other areas, which would also likely not go down well.


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#28
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Also on the subject of immigration in general, it's of no secret that developed Western nations are getting older and older, Japan is a textbook example, and Europe to a slightly lesser extent, and the US to an ever lesser extent. And as a population ages, so does the cost of maintaining things like Medicare and whatnot, social services to old people, again with Europe being an example of this. However, the US's average age is not increasing as significantly as Japan's or Europe's, and the only reason why is because of immigration.

Ever since the beginning of the US, our economy has been dependent upon immigrants, be it the initial settlers and whatnot, the slaves (all be it, they were invoulentary immigrants), the Irish, the Italians, the Germans, the Russians, the Chinese, and now the Hispanics. We are an immigrant nation. So I think the question should be which costs more? An ageing population, or the costs of having illegal immigrants around? (side note: as an immigrant's son, I don't much condone coming to the US illegally. However in cases of desperation, I can't help but be sympathetic. But that's a completely different topic). 


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#29
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>>>>
as an immigrant's son, I don't much condone coming to the US illegally. <<<<

I am also a 1st generation American. My parents went the legal route, and waited years to get their paperwork approved.

I have no issues with legal immigration. Additionally, the quotas should be tweaked to target people with skills that are in high demand (educated professionals; in other words, people that become a contributor overall, rather than one who will be one who likely takes more out of the system than they put into it.

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#30
Bilal

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That's not be point Steve, the point is the government should be picking up the coats of these expenses be aide they sure can spend 340 million on pickle development, and reckless spending which is over 4 billion a year! Stop hurting the working class and thy should help us out. Or they should cut the costs of immigrants, 21,000 is very high to me..

Are you saying the US gets only 21,000 immigrants per year? :huh:



#31
Ioh

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Are you saying the US gets only 21,000 immigrants per year? :huh:

 

they get that from mexico alone


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#32
Bilal

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they get that from mexico alone

You think that's bad, 21,000 from mexico? How would you feel if you had 1.3 million illegal immigrants crossing your border at once? Once being 1 year, I'm referring to afghan refugees crossing the border into pakistan



#33
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Well I don't know about you, but they can 'cross my borders' as many times as they want ;)

 

At least, if daily-mail indications were true, I've yet to suffer for it.

Are you going to hire them to work in the fox factory? :ermm:



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Honestly guys you arre ranting about the wrong subject so this is pointless to fight.. When somebody goes back to the subject all come back

#35
Stevphfeniey

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Well we are discussing it, and the point that I, and probably several other people, have come up with is that despite costing money to a foreign government as an immigrant, you can make up for it by being a skilled worker. Only by just going to another country and not doing anything would you be a significant drain on the system. I know reading can be a bit tedious, but I invite you to read what we've said. Honestly there should be nothing stopping you from emigrating to wherever you wish assuming you have some sort of skill to contribute to the nation you're emigrating to. 


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#36
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Sorry CT but what your basing this all on is utter nonsense. Your saying that immigrants cost the country money, what your doing here is just putting all immigrants under one false idea. There are many different types of immigrants, eg the economic migrant who comes to a country for work. The UK has a large number of economic migrants from across the world, they put into our economy far more than they take out, as for example if you are from outside of the EU you are not entitled to any benefits whatsoever, you have to become a UK citizen which involves living in the country for 5 years before you are given the option to become a UK citizen.

 

Furthermore your logic of "immigrants cost more so there tax is higher" is nonsense. The amount of tax that is paid in the UK is higher in the US because we have more public services. We need the money to run the National Health Service, which gives everyone free healthcare. We need it to run the police service, the fire service, the education system. All of these taxes are used for the benefit of the country. These public services are what make up the higher level of tax that are paid in the UK compared to the US. Also why do you say that it is only England where this cost of £7000 occurs and not Scotland and Wales when they are part of the United Kingdom and so receive the same level of support. (I''m a citizen of the United Kingdom)

 

May I also bring in the statistics that show that Mexican immigrants in the United States will get far less back from the US Government than that of a person that has been born in the United States. They are far less likely to ask for Government support when it comes to their situation, whilst will end up paying in more taxes for the work that they do. Giving them a net positive effect of the US economy. (Source Geography Coursework hand out on the status of immigration in the US)

 

I will leave you on this thought:

 

Why then is Australia paying people to move to the country if immigrants according to you are such a burden?

Because Australia needs skilled people to come to their country, not every immigrant is a drain on a country 


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#37
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Again, Colin, the only reason why the US is keeping its workforce relatively young is because of immigration. So ask your AP Macro teacher which would be a bigger drain to the economy: An ageing population dependent upon government social security? Or an immigrant coming to the US to work. 

 

However, to play some sort of Devil's advocate, immigration isn't entirely doubleplusgood for everybody, because places like Dubai and suburban America are dependent upon poor immigrant workers taking jobs people don't want to do. 


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#38
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Right let's look at the places with ageing populations that are suffering due to it.

  • Japan - Has the highest amount of over 90s anywhere in the world, they have been stuck in slow economic growth now for nearly 20 years. The lack of a young population has meant that Japan is falling backwards in the world.
  • Belarus - It's population is shrinking and it's economy is in a far worse state than it was under the USSR.
  • Hungary - Young people are moving away from Hungary because there is a lack of oppurtunity due to a ageing population.
  • France - It's been tackling an ageing population since the 1930s with various attempts on encouraging people have more children. They still have an ageing population, however without an influx of immigration from countries like Algeria and Tunisia, they would have a far higher amount of older people and they would be in a far worse place.

You need young people and those young people come in the form of immigrants, without these young people you end up with an incredibly high dependency ratio. This ratio is the number of people aged 21-60 or 65 depending on the average retirement age, compared to those aged 0-20 and 65+. The higher this ratio is the worse of an economic burden you have caused by an ageing population, as it is is those of working age who are paying for the care of their parents and their children. While it can be shown that a large older population can be good for a country through their higher level of involvement in their grandchild's care which means that the cost of childcare is lower, as well as the "grey pound" bringing an economic boost to areas where a high number of elderly people retire. You still will reach a point that is happening in most of Eastern Europe and ex Soviet countries as well as many MEDC's who industrialised first  where an ageing population is becoming a burden on their Government and economy.


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#39
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In reply to Moldova and Stephfenley,

There are different classes/categories of immigrants.

In the US (and likely UK as well), educated / skilled immigrants are normally an overall benefit to the country, with the contribution they make to the economy in taxes and productivity a net plus.

Unskilled workers (which in the US make up the bulk of illegal immigrants) do not generally generate high incomes, will therefore not pay a high amount of taxes (when taxes are even collected since many of these people "off the books"/for cash under the table).
Yet their children will be educated in publicly funded schools, they will receive health care/benefits while generally not having health insurance and not paying for the services they receive (or if paying anything, nowhere close to the full cost).
In that sense, they will receive more in benefits, than they pay in. This will be a net loss, and must be made up by legal taxpayers (in the example regarding schools), or by increased health care costs to those that have insurance.

You can read up on this here:

http://www.cis.org/H...-of-Cheap-Labor

The study is dated (2002 figures) and only covers costs to the US federal government, but I don't think I would be going out on a limb to speculate tha in the 11 years since then, the costs have increased. Also, the net deficit trend experienced by state and local governments would be similar.

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#40
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Sorry CT but what your basing this all on is utter nonsense. Your saying that immigrants cost the country money, what your doing here is just putting all immigrants under one false idea. There are many different types of immigrants, eg the economic migrant who comes to a country for work. The UK has a large number of economic migrants from across the world, they put into our economy far more than they take out, as for example if you are from outside of the EU you are not entitled to any benefits whatsoever, you have to become a UK citizen which involves living in the country for 5 years before you are given the option to become a UK citizen.

 

Furthermore your logic of "immigrants cost more so there tax is higher" is nonsense. The amount of tax that is paid in the UK is higher in the US because we have more public services. We need the money to run the National Health Service, which gives everyone free healthcare. We need it to run the police service, the fire service, the education system. All of these taxes are used for the benefit of the country. These public services are what make up the higher level of tax that are paid in the UK compared to the US. Also why do you say that it is only England where this cost of £7000 occurs and not Scotland and Wales when they are part of the United Kingdom and so receive the same level of support. (I''m a citizen of the United Kingdom)

 

May I also bring in the statistics that show that Mexican immigrants in the United States will get far less back from the US Government than that of a person that has been born in the United States. They are far less likely to ask for Government support when it comes to their situation, whilst will end up paying in more taxes for the work that they do. Giving them a net positive effect of the US economy. (Source Geography Coursework hand out on the status of immigration in the US)

 

I will leave you on this thought:

 

Why then is Australia paying people to move to the country if immigrants according to you are such a burden?

Because Australia needs skilled people to come to their country, not every immigrant is a drain on a country 

 

Completely agree, well said Moldy.

 

This kid clearly doesn't know his stuff.

 

He thinks a "macroeconomics" class or whatever it is he got taught will mean he completely understands the way the government, tax, and public services work, well clearly that's not the case.


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