80 replies to this topic

[Sheepy]

Sheepy: like i said earlier, this defeats the purpose of an OPEN world and makes it unfair if someone say wants to fly to a particular airport, but cant because its too used, i think 3 small 100 airline worlds is the best way of reducing congestion without restricting players.

adityapratama: this concept is mostly inded for open worlds, as there my favorite at the time, i really think ar and sheepy's suggestions impose too much restrictions, especialy for an open world, or even a real world, making there restriction more for appropriate for a special world.

limiting airlines wont mae them fight only in the biggest airport, because if they concentrate there, theoretically they MIGHT become just as crowded as now and it might reduce crowding there, as what are the chances of every airline starting in the same airport? this may force some into smaller airports as well, unpopular airports will still be used, especially by someone like me that likes wide variety of destinations, and maybe someone wanting to fly a regional airline.

i really think this idea should be given a chance instead of brushed to the side, it hurts no one, and appeals more to those wanting to avoid the overcrowding.

My suggestion is intended for realistic worlds, however I had to say it when the country limit appeared.
Open worlds are meh anyway. Simply limiting airlines would not work in open, imo.
Realistic is much better, don't have Air New Zealand running JFK-SLC and GRU-LIM at the same time.

[Chandler Keith Henson]

QK Flight Industries: how many airlines cease operations because there tired of the competition? how many quit because of overcrowding, that could be a factor

Sheepy: you may have a good idea for Realistic worlds, but i would love to see this idea for some new open worlds.

[adityapratama]

I'm still thinking this kind of world wouldn't last long,people will just get bored with less competition in general. They will fighting for the most crowded routes from the beginning and then abandon it after halfway through.

Do we have a small world before? I think we do have it before, I can't remember

[Chandler Keith Henson]

we cant say people will abandon it without trying, and we cant say there will be no competition, i actualy would get less tired of it, because it would be a bit easier to take a break from the game for other things like RL and it would be a tiny bit more relaxed

[pseudoswede]

i actualy would get less tired of it, because it would be a bit easier to take a break from the game

Then you don't understand the economics of on-line games. On-line games make money by ad revenue, which comes from players who have to login every day to play. They do not want games where players aren't compelled to login every day to play.

Otherwise, you need to implement a pay-to-play model. Two other airline sims have tried smaller worlds, but on a pay-to-play basis.

One (IIRC, it was 150 players) stopped halfway through because the players admitted it was horribly boring with so little players and competition. The other cannibalized its own userbase by diluting public worlds of players, which reduced competition throughout all worlds.

[pseudoswede]

Does AE not just run at a loss?

From what I've gathered from conversations in chat, it would be bigger losses if there wasn't ad revenue.

[pseudoswede]

Still, I'm not really a fan of the 100 airline world idea, It would really just encourage more big airlines...

I agree. 300-airline (in reality, 200 players) worlds aren't competitive at all. R2 is only 16 game years old, and there are less than 200 active airlines (maybe closer to 150).

[Chandler Keith Henson]

pseudoswede: actually i do understand that they make money from ads, 1 day of not logging in isn't going to break that, but 1 day of not logging in and your airline's profit being down the tube and having to work a lot to recover, and when the game is slow, having to take HOURS out of your precious time just to fix a few routes, that might, because that's when the player gives up and quits, because they do not have the time for the game, thus no more ad revenue, speaking of ads? why are there in-game ads? but not in forums ads? if there are i haven't seen them. since the game worlds are limited, there can only be so many playing, while some have to wait, so why not put ads on the forums?

One (IIRC, it was 150 players) stopped halfway through because the players admitted it was horribly boring with so little players and competition. The other cannibalized its own userbase by diluting public worlds of players, which reduced competition throughout all worlds.

also please explain this situation, how many players was too little and how much competition is too little? how did they cannibalize users base?

FoxTrident: whats wrong with more big airlines? i actualy like to have a big airline , and aren't gates set to expire anyways? those airlines provide some competition if there inactive, and if there not using gates, then they get lost after 2 months right? if not we could impose more strict inactivity for these new worlds.

pseudoswede 2nd post: for me, honestly, the 300 worlds are too competitive at times, i want something that is more relaxed and i can focus more on expansion and tweaking my airline and not as much on adjusting ticket prices all the time, especially when the game is lagging. a world where i dont have to be on top of it all the time and cant afford to take a 1 day break say for a family vacation, or spending time with my Girlfriend. Competition it wouldnt be as bad if it werent for the frequent lag of AE that makes it take forever to adjust a ticket price and has frustrated me on multiple occasions, especially since it could negatively affect my profit..

Edited by Chandler Keith Henson, 29 June 2012 - 02:44 AM.

[adityapratama]

Trust me, a small world for 100 players only will only last for 10-15 years. Foxeh has a point with the example, people will just get bored with the number of competition.

[Chandler Keith Henson]

well i like to grow and be as big as i can be, there is always new growth, new routes, new changes, new planes and sometimes new competition, you are basing this on pure speculation without giving a 100 year world a chance, some airlines might last 10-15 years, but you will have some long term ones, and new ones will come in.

[adityapratama]

People wouldn't start a new airline if the world already reach 10-15 years, they'll just get crushed by the existing airlines

Anyway, I'm wondering why there are no devs in this discussion (points out to Yuxi and Un1 )

[pseudoswede]

also please explain this situation, how many players was too little and how much competition is too little? how did they cannibalize users base?

They started the world with 150 players (maybe it was 100), and they shut it down halfway through because it was boring due to lack of competition.

The only time I've played in a game world where I felt there was good competition was when there were 2000+ players. It truly forced players to consider how much time they have, and it brings in real strategies on where to base (there was also a limit on the number of hubs you could operate from). Newbies who simply based at a large airport and only operated 2 or 3 trunk routes (like JFK-ORD, JFK-ATL, and JFK-DFW) were quickly eaten alive. Those with real strategies survived and flourished. Those same newbies, instead of learning strategy, simply ran away to 10-player private worlds, started the same 2-3 trunk routes, waited a few days, added a few more aircraft, added a few more trunk routes, repeated a few more times, then got bored and stopped playing.

[Chandler Keith Henson]

adityapratama: thats more likely in larger worlds than smaller worlds

pseudoswede:

They started the world with 150 players (maybe it was 100), and they shut it down halfway through because it was boring due to lack of competition.

The only time I've played in a game world where I felt there was good competition was when there were 2000+ players. It truly forced players to consider how much time they have, and it brings in real strategies on where to base (there was also a limit on the number of hubs you could operate from). Newbies who simply based at a large airport and only operated 2 or 3 trunk routes (like JFK-ORD, JFK-ATL, and JFK-DFW) were quickly eaten alive. Those with real strategies survived and flourished. Those same newbies, instead of learning strategy, simply ran away to 10-player private worlds, started the same 2-3 trunk routes, waited a few days, added a few more aircraft, added a few more trunk routes, repeated a few more times, then got bored and stopped playing.

define the lack of competition? and do we have a bunch of noobies, we might have a few but not a ton, everyone is one sometime, so of course if they operated like that it would get boring, 100 players reduces the crowding at major airports, there still will be competition, heck i get competition from airports where its me and another player, so it wont be boring, you cant base it on what has happened on other sites, as they probably operate differently and appeal to different players, and what about those players that dont want to devote a portion of there life to playing a game? but still want to play the game?

the amount of time you need to be on can get too much, causing players to leave, i know it happens, its what killed my desire to play any Zynga game on Facebook, such as Farmville, Frontierville, Cityville, Empires and Allies, there fun, however, it was soo much work for a simple game, if i took 1 day off or missed one day i had a bunch more work to do, withered crops, stuff to clean up, people to attack, and it got tiring and boring, if stuff didnt get messed up over a day or 2 i might still be playing a few of them today. competiton will exist in smaller worlds, it will be different, but not non existance, but what kills players desire to play, is competition that is too much, combined with slow gameplay making it take hours to fix there routes when they might only have a few hours to play per day, and the fact that you have players that are on all the time, making them unable to compete because they simply dont have alot of time for the game, it would be better to have a smller world as this issue would not exist as much due to slightly (but not completly) reduced competition

[adityapratama]

No,even though it's a small world, people wouldn't join in after 10-15 years, the reasons:

1. They see the world is lack of competition and boring (assuming after 10 years the number of airlines were cut into half and only left about 50 active airlines)
2. If they insisted to join the world, it is highly possible they will get crushed by the existing airlines (which will already become a mega airlines by that time)

[Chandler Keith Henson]

adityapratama:


1. how would they make someone think it lacks competition? and what would make them think lack of competition is boring? some people may actualy like less competition, i know i would, after spending time of building up my airline and then have $2 million in revenue disappear over the time my internet went out today, gets EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING, especially since the time to recover takes way too long (AE is unbearably slow alot of times)

2. how could they get crushed? there would be less airlines and therefor reduced competition, so routes would not be overcrowded as much and may have higher demand than seats, thus airlines will be able to charge higher prices, a new airline could EASILY come in and undercut them, providing new competition. also your #2 contradicts #1, because if people leave because of lack of "competition" and being "boring" then the new comers wouldn't have be worried about being crushed by existing mega airlines.

you are basing this on mostly speculation, it may SEEM boring to you and others, but it hasnt been tried here. what is boring to some may be more fun to others and if they could get crushed, thats competition, makes it a challenge.

[Angus]

Look with less competition the mega airlines in each world would be able to be bigger and stronger. Then if anyone joins late they can easily crush them and continue their monopoly. The only way a 100 airline world would work is if people would limit themselves. That is obviously not going to happen unless you hand select the players for the world.

[Chandler Keith Henson]

how can you be so sure they would crush them?

[Sheepy]

Look with less competition the mega airlines in each world would be able to be bigger and stronger. Then if anyone joins late they can easily crush them and continue their monopoly. The only way a 100 airline world would work is if people would limit themselves. That is obviously not going to happen unless you hand select the players for the world.

Perhaps a smaller world with seat limit would work.
I know that a fleet limit is already a popular idea, however this doesn't work for a number of reasons.
However, if we assume that 200 is a maximum fleet size. Lets assume, on average, each player will have 200 seats in each aircraft.
Therefore, 200x200 = a maximum of 40,000 seats across available across the airline's entire network.
This could be done either by aircraft (400 seat limit = max of 8, 50 seat CRJs), or by seats available on routes. (400 seat limit = max of 4 daily 100 seat 737-300s, number of actual aircraft is unimportant)

I suspect trials would need to be conducted, to see if it works, and also to determine the correct number, and even then, I don't think the size limit should apply to any more than 25% of all worlds at any one time.

[adityapratama]

how can you be so sure they would crush them?

AirbusGuy explanation should be enough. I'm sure mega airlines will crush new airlines because that's just natural. Position yourself as a mega airline and then a new airlines starts to compete your routes,what would you do? Those airlines are considered as a threat to your airline and of course you will try to hold their expansion right?

[Chandler Keith Henson]

Sheepy: that imposes too much restriction, especialy on an OPEN world

adityapratama: if people would leave because they get bored of lack of competition, then there would be NO mega airlines so mega airlines and people leaving can not both exist, mega airlines would have higher rates because of possible (but again not garunteed lack of competition) so smaller airlines could come in and get a foothold providing lower rates, even if the mega airlines cut there rates to less profitable, the small airlines could open up at airports that everyone says will be ignored, giving them an option to grow, and they could grow enough to be able to compete with the mega airlines.