42 replies to this topic

[bradley]

Higher limits would be realistic, but I'd prefer to have protection from a handful of carriers locking out new airlines.

That is true it makes it would harder for an airline of the ground

[bolli]

I think keep the gate restrictions, AE needs more competion for airport gates, in the old Sim2 London Heathrow, JFK, ATL and other global hubs had no gates left going and there was always a rush to secure a gate at the airport, if there was a gate at the airport it was snacted up within 2 minutes, this competition helped the usage of other airports in the area, there were a far higher amount of international flights to London heading into Gatwick and Stanstead then there are today in AE. Im hoping with the gate numbers Im getting we can actually get a huge sense of competition, we need to see secondary airports in AE used more we need to see the Lutons, Westchesters and Beauvais of AE used more.

The problem with that then brit is you get feeder airlines that have more flights into an airport with a smaller aircraft type, and they have to limit their usage to unreasonable levels.


I think that a turnaround time based system is best.. -ie the sum of the turnarounds can't be more that 24 hours, which is also more realistic.

[LLC]

Just for a fun test, I decided to count how many gates there truly are in LHR (in AE8). (and no I didn't actually count, I ran a MySQL query )

My results were...226, 26 over the limit. There are also a shocking 166 gates used in JFK. (this includes terminals)
This means that there actually isn't actually a strong demand for gates.

However..that will change as Moldova has announced that he will provide us with accurate gate numbers for various airports for AE3.1 (which will help to create a more competitive environment for gates), now for my required input of this thread (just input on foreign airports).

Limiting 5 gates at foreign airports, while not be realistic prevents people from fatally flooding other peoples hubs from just one country, at most the limit should be upped to 15 but not anymore as I would fear that it could cause airlines based completely on the international sector to go bankrupt, from one airline based in a completely different country. There are airlines that are indeed based in only one market, country 1 to country 2 and if an from country 2 airline floods every flight he runs the airline in country 1 will go bankrupt, which while allowed is other than horribly embarrassing, not that realistic. It would however be realistic if 2 or 3 airlines were apart of this, and one of them from country 1. That is the whole reason why I implemented the 5 gate limit. I have myself never passed 5 gates in a foreign airport before, as my number of hubs never exceeds 5, so I don't know how it feels to be unable to operate flights to a certain airport from all my hubs for reasons other than market & supply (or distance).

Now as for landing slots I was going to implement, I went in way over my head and caused an amazing amount of destruction of various pages trying to implement it..a fixed cap on landing slots rather than gates is what airlinesim has and what I hope AE inherits when timetabling is implemented. As for my opinion on this thread in general, I think 5 is good, but the power in the end is with Yuxi.(oh and Brit, the gate systems for realistic and open worlds are different )

Now for airports in the countries you are based in...
Honestly, I would think loosening them up a bit is better, however my opinion on these is, I don't really care, I can live with the current system and no other option really intrigues me as being better. (Although yes, the current system is unrealistic)

Would not allowing the sharing (leasing ?) of gates, or "community" gates for airlines that have limited flights into and outof a airport
help fix this ?

where there is a maximum numbers of flights that can be operated out of a gate each day, if you allowed for different airlines to
operate out of the same gate based on demand and availability ?

Also another thoutht, I have seen a case where whyle only one 737 could be at a gate, at another time there
would be two CRJ's at the same gate later with one of the CRJ flight's passengers walking on the tarmack and up
the stairs into the jetway

so if I was in charge I would have one overriding rule, if no real life airport or no real life airline does something than it CAN NOT BE IN AE, just a thought...

[Yuxi]

I have decided that in the future (starting with 3.2) we will move toward a time-based slot system, based on aircraft turn time and the number of operating hours for each airport. Thanks to whoever came up with the turn-time idea (txaggie?)

For 3.1 how about we go to 10 gates per airline and 25 if a hub?

[Limskj]

I have played AE for only a while and my biggest concern is the actual competition on routes. It has become very difficult for new carriers like mine to start up because routes become very congested with as many as 6 airlines, leaving very low profit routes for new carriers, even when the world has just begun for a few years. Large airlines snap up so many routes its virtually impossible to open new routes and have maximum profitability.

Note: I play in the Open World. Not related to topic, but I thought I just posted it anyway.

[Yuxi]

I have played AE for only a while and my biggest concern is the actual competition on routes. It has become very difficult for new carriers like mine to start up because routes become very congested with as many as 6 airlines, leaving very low profit routes for new carriers, even when the world has just begun for a few years. Large airlines snap up so many routes its virtually impossible to open new routes and have maximum profitability.

Note: I play in the Open World. Not related to topic, but I thought I just posted it anyway.

Are you looking at the trunk routes between big airports like ORD and LHR? Usually when people say routes are overcrowded, I find there are plenty of routes between medium-sized cities (with demand between 200-500 daily) still underserved (or even completely empty). When you're starting out, you should avoid the busiest airports.

[lshlarson]

I have decided that in the future (starting with 3.2) we will move toward a time-based slot system, based on aircraft turn time and the number of operating hours for each airport. Thanks to whoever came up with the turn-time idea (txaggie?)

For 3.1 how about we go to 10 gates per airline and 25 if a hub?

I agree with the 10/25. It makes sense.

[Limskj]

Are you looking at the trunk routes between big airports like ORD and LHR? Usually when people say routes are overcrowded, I find there are plenty of routes between medium-sized cities (with demand between 200-500 daily) still underserved (or even completely empty). When you're starting out, you should avoid the busiest airports.

But those routes have very minimal profits.

[lshlarson]

But those routes have very minimal profits.

I'd have to disagree, I've made $400k or so on medium-demand international routes daily, like DCA-BHX, PDX-ITM, etc., and $250k or so on medium regional routes. I've even made HIO-JFK $700k daily with 757s.

[bolli]

But those routes have very minimal profits.

The smaller routes have less profit, but they also have less demand, so put fewer flights on them... this uses fewer aircraft, which enables you to run more routes, and i find, make more money...

[N4niner206]

I think in some cases there are way too many gates (and therefor slots) available at many of the airports. For example, small regional airports that in reality have 4 to 6 gates, in some cases have 25-50. To set these more accurately would also affect what happens at major airports, and keep some elements of competition in all markets.

An example... Terre Haute, IN (HUF) is an airport I'm familiar with. The real-world terminal has 2 gates and has not had passenger service in almost a decade. In-game, this airport has 25 gates! As it stands, if there is an abundance of gates at all aiports, the "big guys" will always be able to come in and take over. Smaller regional carriers potentially wouldn't stand a chance. If someone wanted to make their favorite small airport into a major hub, exercise an option to build additional gates/terminals.

[Yuxi]

I think in some cases there are way too many gates (and therefor slots) available at many of the airports. For example, small regional airports that in reality have 4 to 6 gates, in some cases have 25-50. To set these more accurately would also affect what happens at major airports, and keep some elements of competition in all markets.

An example... Terre Haute, IN (HUF) is an airport I'm familiar with. The real-world terminal has 2 gates and has not had passenger service in almost a decade. In-game, this airport has 25 gates! As it stands, if there is an abundance of gates at all aiports, the "big guys" will always be able to come in and take over. Smaller regional carriers potentially wouldn't stand a chance. If someone wanted to make their favorite small airport into a major hub, exercise an option to build additional gates/terminals.

We are updating gate counts for airports for the next version.

For small airports, reducing gates to 2-6 would exacerbate the takeover problem.

You can build your own terminal already.

[N4niner206]

We are updating gate counts for airports for the next version.

For small airports, reducing gates to 2-6 would exacerbate the takeover problem.

You can build your own terminal already.

My thinking about reducing the gates at some airports is that it would give some airlines a reason to exist. As it stands currently, even if you get a foothold at some small airports, the big guys with lots of money can move in and squeeze you out of the market. If an airport had limited gates/slots and a small airline was able to become established there, it would give realistic reasons for airlines to form alliances as well. As it stands currently, any airline that has the cash can serve the tiniest airports because there is so much gate space. In the real world, many airlines have merged, code-shared, or even been bought just because they had established themselves in limited markets, or had gate space that was at a premium. When every small airport has 25 gates (including airports that realistically have only 2-6), the only way to keep the competition out is to buy all 25 gates. I'm not opposed to competition, just stating that a whole dynamic to the airline business is missing when many airports have a disproportionately large amount of gate space.

Regarding the abilitiy to build your own terminal... I am aware of that ability... that is the option that I was referring to.

All said, this is a great game and I don't mean this at all to come across as a complaint... merely one member's suggestions. I think it is awesome that you are polling the members for input, and I thought I would present a point of view that may have not been expressed yet. My thought is this would open additional dynamics to the game, where members would have an opportunity to use an additional level of strategy. Just 2 cents from a fan.

[jwebb]

i think you should make focus cities for like 5 gates and at 10 do a hub

[BenjaminAdnam]

I personally voted for the limit to be 40% if you have flights there and 75% if it was a hub. I chose this because I have seen some airlines essentially own an airport. Has anyone ever walked through Houston (IAH)? If you have, you'll know what I'm talking about. IAH is essentially owned by Continental, the same is true for Cleveland but not to quite the extent as at Houston. I live in Columbus, Ohio (CMH), Port Columbus is dominated by Southwest today. However, it does have a few other airlines like US Airways, Air Canada, Delta and American Airlines. My point is that airports can be dominated by a single airline, this should be possible in AE too. I agree with what BritAbroad said also, airports can build new runways in the real world, so why can't airports build them here? I also liked someone's idea of airports having limited runways that they could build. That's all I have to say, thank you.

[txaggie]

I'd be for higher limits like that, but I think you'd need a little protection in place for airlines looking to enter the market, as there is in the real world.

[berubium]

Based on Yuxi's earlier post about a time-based slot system for AE 3.2, I'm really looking forward to that (although I know that's still a long way away).

I also second the motion about drastically reducing the number of gates at smaller & medium sized airports. Personally I'd vote to keep the gate limit per airline as is (5 per airline & 15 if it's a hub), but I like the idea of having to compete for slots as well, which is why having less gates at many airports would be great. Perhaps it would prevent the flooding of some airports & discourage some airlines from setting up once-weekly routes from some cities to virtually every other city on the planet within reach.

Only in the AE Beta Realistic World have I really noticed big-time competition for slots at major airports (like Chicago, Toronto, Los Angeles, etc.). For all I know, it could be happening elsewhere in the AE 3.0 worlds, but not yet to any of the cities that I've been flying to so far.

If the game could factor in connecting pax a bit more (and make it so you don't necessarily have to have 15 or so gates to get connecting pax), it would perhaps change how we lease gates (less demand on spokes, more on hubs).

[berubium]

I didn't realize how old this thread was when I posted; feel free to disregard my comments...

[Yuxi]

I didn't realize how old this thread was when I posted; feel free to disregard my comments...

As nothing has happened on the development end for a while , this is still an active discussion topic. More comments / ideas are welcome