35 replies to this topic

[Russ]

They can bash SWA all they want, but for reasons that matter. I prefer a little upscale myself, love those free upgrades to 1st.

But the public has demonstrated that price is more important than anything else. And business travelers will no longer subsidize the rest of the plane.

So unless the legacy airlines find someway of adding value to earn the extra ticket prices, they must find a way to get thier costs in line with the LCC. Right now airline seats are a commodity with very little pricing power. If any airline employee confuses what passengers are willing to pay with what they think they should earn, they are in for a rude awakening.

That said, I do feel for them. I went through the dot com boom and bust and I know how it feels to have your income cut by 30-40%. It truly sux

[whowey]

They can bash SWA all they want, but for reasons that matter. I prefer a little upscale myself, love those free upgrades to 1st.

But the public has demonstrated that price is more important than anything else. And business travelers will no longer subsidize the rest of the plane.

So unless the legacy airlines find someway of adding value to earn the extra ticket prices, they must find a way to get thier costs in line with the LCC. Right now airline seats are a commodity with very little pricing power. If any airline employee confuses what passengers are willing to pay with what they think they should earn, they are in for a rude awakening.

That said, I do feel for them. I went through the dot com boom and bust and I know how it feels to have your income cut by 30-40%. It truly sux

I call SWA 'Greyhound Airlines', with the way you are treated, you probably should have taken the bus. One experience on them was enough, for me to learn. Plus I have yet to find a route they run, where the competiton doesn't match or beat their prices. After cranking up 32k air miles last year, and 25k the year before, assigned seats, special lines, and free upgrades by far mean more to me than stupid slogans and irritating commericals.

[Russ]

I call SWA 'Greyhound Airlines', with the way you are treated, you probably should have taken the bus. One experience on them was enough, for me to learn. Plus I have yet to find a route they run, where the competiton doesn't match or beat their prices. After cranking up 32k air miles last year, and 25k the year before, assigned seats, special lines, and free upgrades by far mean more to me than stupid slogans and irritating commericals.

You illustrate my point. If the SWA cost structure is supported by a certain ticket price, than the legacy carriers must reduce their cost structures to match that ticket price. So that is why the legacy carriers are reducing pay, it is one of the few areas they can reduce on the cost side.

I did over 225K last year. I have no problem with SWA on flights less than 2 hours. I don't get food, the upgrade is pretty worthless, and I log in on line 24 hours in advance and get a group A. So for 2hrs or less, I can't see the legacy airlines offering any value add. And I worry about getting stuck on a RJ. Compared to a RJ, the SWA 737 is FC.

I flew mostly coast to coast last year. In that case, I agree with all your reasons.

[whowey]

You illustrate my point. If the SWA cost structure is supported by a certain ticket price, than the legacy carriers must reduce their cost structures to match that ticket price. So that is why the legacy carriers are reducing pay, it is one of the few areas they can reduce on the cost side.

I did over 225K last year. I have no problem with SWA on flights less than 2 hours. I don't get food, the upgrade is pretty worthless, and I log in on line 24 hours in advance and get a group A. So for 2hrs or less, I can't see the legacy airlines offering any value add. And I worry about getting stuck on a RJ. Compared to a RJ, the SWA 737 is FC.

I flew mostly coast to coast last year. In that case, I agree with all your reasons.

I live in the Midwest, so almost all my miles are 1/2-way across. Plus, one of my LARGEST complaints is the fact they use MDW rather than ORD in Chicago. About 70% of my travel begins or ends there.

MDW features all the bad things about airports. Short Runways(built for DC-3's not 737's), Bad neighborhood,bad parking, a stupid hotel right at the edge of the airport flight path, dirty, dingy airport. In fact SWA is in the older, worse part of the airport. I remember the CPD tossing bums out of MDW on winter days. The mass transit stops aren't even decent in there.

Now I realize that stuff isn't SWA's fault for the most part, but combine that with cattle call boarding, herd mentality, and the incessant moronic attitude of the airline. I understand that they are the 'new' business model, unfortunately. I understand that a LARGE part of the legacy carrier's problem are employee related costs. With a significant portion being related to employees no longer helping generate any revenue. These costs are going to be rising for the LCC's also as they remain in business, and their workforces age.

I have to respectfully disagree with you about SW 737 feeling like first class. The first time I had a last minute kinda flight, and I got stuck in one of their rear-facing seats, with a family surrounding me, I knew this wasn't the airline for me....

[CaptKornDog]

Well...looks like I need to start thinking about using my 35,000 NWA WorldPerk miles soon. Was hoping to get first class upgrades to HNL when NWA puts the A330s on them...if they last that long. NWA is indeed in a trouble spot I'd have to say.

As for SWA and Denver...I'm doing everything in my power not to fly them. Despite their new DEN-SLC, DEN-LAS, DEN-STL, DEN-BNA, and other routes directly competing with Frontier, America West, and other airlines, I do not want to give them my business. I agree with whowey about their "Greyhound" service from the stories I've heard from friends. I would much rather fly United, Frontier, Northwest, Midwest (and am for my next upcoming trip), etc.

[piercey]

As far as Northwest goes, "The last airline in bankruptcy..."

[whowey]

Well...looks like I need to start thinking about using my 35,000 NWA WorldPerk miles soon. Was hoping to get first class upgrades to HNL when NWA puts the A330s on them...if they last that long. NWA is indeed in a trouble spot I'd have to say.

As for SWA and Denver...I'm doing everything in my power not to fly them. Despite their new DEN-SLC, DEN-LAS, DEN-STL, DEN-BNA, and other routes directly competing with Frontier, America West, and other airlines, I do not want to give them my business. I agree with whowey about their "Greyhound" service from the stories I've heard from friends. I would much rather fly United, Frontier, Northwest, Midwest (and am for my next upcoming trip), etc.

I agree, you probab;y had better start using your NWA miles. I got a feeling they are going to get the short end of the bankruptcy stick.

United added RFD-DEN this spring Now I only have a 35 minute drive!!!
Like I said I still have to find an SWA route where I can't find the same ticket price, or better on an airline that actually acts like they want me on their flights.

I realize I have it better than alot of people. World class airline and their main hub, at my usual airline of departure. Major league service from all of the big carriers, and most of the smaller ones. I do wish Midwest serviced Chicago from O'Hare. If I drive to Milwaukee-Mitchell its almost 100 miles one-way. I would like to try them even though I'm not crazy about the MD-80 family of aircraft. They have felt cramped to me since they were DC-9's.

How does Denver International compare to Stapleton? I haven' been there in the daylight since construction was complete.

[airline55]

I can't see NW going under. Call it a hunch, but there are only two remaining problems, both of which are unions, so NW will likely go to court to have the pay deal imposed on FA's and groundworkers. Another order can be used to make a strike illegal. I hope thats what happens, the thought of NW going belly-up frightens me.

[TorqueWrench]

So, it seems taht they are determined to cut their nose off despite their face?

You mean, "Cut their nose to spite their face..."

[whowey]

I can't see NW going under. Call it a hunch, but there are only two remaining problems, both of which are unions, so NW will likely go to court to have the pay deal imposed on FA's and groundworkers. Another order can be used to make a strike illegal. I hope thats what happens, the thought of NW going belly-up frightens me.

Going under, NO.

Much different airline, YES.

I see more than two problems.

Antique airfleet, TWO unprofitable hubs, bankrupt feeders.

Certainly not the time to be stuck with a huge fleet of old, fuel guzzling aircraft, Hubs in economically 'challenged' cities.

[WingsOTWorld]

Heres me questions, other than Memphis...what's that other "unprofitable hub"...

[whowey]

Heres me questions, other than Memphis...what's that other "unprofitable hub"...

MSP.

But can you find a more economically challenged metroplex than DTW??

[WingsOTWorld]

MSP cant be that bad.....its so busy there, it be diffcult to believe it true, but show me a financial report on it and ill agree with that statement....

[airline55]

Well, Detroit is a very economically challenged city, but the area is not, about fifty miles north, is Oakland County, one of the richest areas in the country, not to mention other nice areas near by. SO, with the exception of the current economic slump (which should end when we get a more corporate friendly gov. in novemeber), DTW is in a relatively good region.

btw, Metro airport is not actually in Detroit, it is in Romulus.


Now, as for NW changing a lot, I don't think that is a bad thing, as they can make improvements. That includes running newer planes, and hopefully getting more friendly FA's as younger ones come in and older ones leave or retire.

Also, it seems the baggage/ground workers accepted a new, revised contract offer. So the FA's are the last holdout. My question is, how much does it hurt the airline when they don't get the cuts they originally planned on getting, and where do they take the extra money from?

[whowey]

Well, Detroit is a very economically challenged city, but the area is not, about fifty miles north, is Oakland County, one of the richest areas in the country, not to mention other nice areas near by. SO, with the exception of the current economic slump (which should end when we get a more corporate friendly gov. in novemeber), DTW is in a relatively good region.

btw, Metro airport is not actually in Detroit, it is in Romulus.


Now, as for NW changing a lot, I don't think that is a bad thing, as they can make improvements. That includes running newer planes, and hopefully getting more friendly FA's as younger ones come in and older ones leave or retire.

Also, it seems the baggage/ground workers accepted a new, revised contract offer. So the FA's are the last holdout. My question is, how much does it hurt the airline when they don't get the cuts they originally planned on getting, and where do they take the extra money from?

I have to travel to the Detroit Metro area alot in the last two years. The reasoning behind the statement, 'economically challenged'. The city of Detroit is a disaster, but the entire regions over-reliance on the auto industry has left it really exposed to the manufacturers' troubles.

Ohh, they will get them. They will end up before a bankruptcy judge, who will order the FA's to accept. When the FA's say they are striking, the bankruptcy judge will issue a restraining order against that. If the judge doesn't issue it, NWA will ask the Bush Administration to issue a Taft-Hartley order. They will use the excuse, that they are a necessary part of the economy and local legislators will scream bloody murder until the administration issues the Taft-Hartley order. FA's will be left with one of two choices, return to work with no contract, or face being arrested.

NWA will use this as reasoning for more RJ operations. Remember CRJ's have only 2 FA's as opposed to DC-9's which have 3. The EMB jets that NW has openly said it wants to fly also have only 2 FA's on board.

[airline55]

they don't even have to go to Bush, Gropper will do it.