35 replies to this topic

[airline55]

Yahoo.com story

So, it seems taht they are determined to cut their nose off despite their face?

First comes the carrot, then comes the stick. They rejected the carrot, so it seems that NW will be forced to resort to the stick, get court permission to impose cuts and ban a strike. Sad that it had to come to this.

btw, I guess their VP is retiring? What does this mean for the airline.

[BarbulaM1]

We need a dead legacy soon, it will either be Delta or Northwest. Also banning a strike is illegal in some states... And if they did, there is no way to stop a strike they can just not show up to work. (I believe that is what Denver's transit did).

[whowey]

We need a dead legacy soon, it will either be Delta or Northwest. Also banning a strike is illegal in some states... And if they did, there is no way to stop a strike they can just not show up to work. (I believe that is what Denver's transit did).

How did that turn out for the ATC's back in the 80's????

But I agree a dead legacy would certainly thin the market out, provide opportunities for other airlines. And keep the talking heads at CNN busy for awhile. Remember People's Express???

[airline55]

you are correct, that a court cannot force people to work, but they can jail and fine people for not working, not to mention contempt of court. Besides, even if a court cannot, the President CAN order people back to work

And I disagree that we need a dead legacy. Any way you cut it, a dead legacy means that one city is in very hot water (if not more than one city).

A dead legacy would kill the industry. Take for example, NW. If NW goes under, DTW, MSP, and perhaps Memphis would all become dead airports, and no airline (or combination of airlines) can take over for a dead legacy right away. No one has that kind of aircraft or money. Prices would skyrocket (S&D) and fewer poeple could afford to fly. For the industry, it may be good in the very short run. BUT, it would cause problems for the economy overall.

[maratimejet]

A dead legacy would kill the industry. Take for example, NW. If NW goes under, DTW, MSP, and perhaps Memphis would all become dead airports, and no airline (or combination of airlines) can take over for a dead legacy right away. No one has that kind of aircraft or money. Prices would skyrocket (S&D) and fewer poeple could afford to fly. For the industry, it may be good in the very short run. BUT, it would cause problems for the economy overall.

I am sure DTW and MSP would see another carrier move in, not the size of NW, but still support the airport. The prices might rise for a short term, but overall I think fuel will make prices rise more than losing an airline.

[WingsOTWorld]

In the 1980s with ATC issues...didn't they just fire all the controllers and hire new ones?

And in the case of NWA for my family...we have milage with them, and we use that when we can, and rack up the points everytime we go to Thailand to visit our family. You see, my grandparents are slowly declining into very old age, and I only see them for at max 3 weeks out of the year (my parents as well) and the NWA milage points helps us to be able to go every year otherwise we wouldn't be able to afford it...or at least not as easily. Plus, this is also the only time i get to know more of my heritage and visit more extended family. So if they leave the business world....there goes quite a few free tickets. But....on a lighter note, then we could switch to a better airline (United comes to mind in the world of American Carriers, but I'd prefer a Japanese airline or Thai International) and join their alliance/milage program/etc.

[Russ]

We need a dead legacy soon, it will either be Delta or Northwest. Also banning a strike is illegal in some states... And if they did, there is no way to stop a strike they can just not show up to work. (I believe that is what Denver's transit did).

The LF's are going to be greater than 85% this summer. Everyone says that there is too much capacity, maybe true post 9/11 but not anymore. The legacies have already dropped seats.

I don't like flying the crowded skies now (let's not mention TSA). Dropping the legacy airline would do NOTHING for the surviving airlines, since they don't really compete against each other. They compete against the LCC. Which will fill all that capacity in rapid order.

The problem is costs not capacity. The business model is LCC.

But frankly, prices have to come up. Even the LCC's are having trouble making a profit with the increase of fuel costs.

[airline55]

Well, look at the king of the LCC's, Southwest, you get what you pay for, no or little food, very few blankets or pillows per flight, cramped seating, and a cattle call boarding style. I am one to think LCCs are part of the problem, not the solution.

That said, cost is the issue. Take a look at some of the issues for NW (pre-bankruptcy):
1) High salleries for workers, uncompetative with the wages of the compettion
2) High fuel prices, until the price of oil comes down or a new source is developed, this will continue to be a problem.
3) An aging fleet, NW continues to operate DC-9's, DC-10's, and 747-200's, all of which are paid for, but very inefficient.

Now NW has done well with #'s 1 and 3, cutting wages and replacing older planes with newer, less costly ones, but the issue is oil, if prices were at where they were in the 90's, between $10 and $30, there would not be an issue. But, since it is taking sometime to find new sources of oil (coast of FL, ANWR, and pressure-cooked pig manure), oil will continue to be the problem.

[WingsOTWorld]

When are the nuclear fusion powered engines gonna come in! lol

[Russ]

Well, look at the king of the LCC's, Southwest, you get what you pay for, no or little food, very few blankets or pillows per flight, cramped seating, and a cattle call boarding style. I am one to think LCCs are part of the problem, not the solution.

Not a big fan of SW or rather a big fan of traveling in style so all you say is true (never had a problem getting blankest/pillows but I digress). The fact is that all the legacies now have that level of service back in peasant and then still lose money.

They are just good at what they do: move people from point A to B. Better than anyone else. You can't convince me that those things you mention cost $100 per flight. But every time SWA goes into a new city the fares come down $100.

[Russ]

The solution of killing off a legacy is a way to increase ticket prices by reducing competition rather than reducing costs to meet revenues. As long as the LCC's are around, any increase in tickets will not result in an increase in service but will go to servicing legacy costs which have no direct benefit to the flying public. reducing capacity may have been a solution in 1980 but it isn't the solution now.

[Russ]

When will everyone learn that SWA is the standard. If you make more than your counterpart at SWA you won't for long. Hurts but is reality. Deal with it.

[WingsOTWorld]

If SWA is the standard, it certainly explains why humanity's future seems bleak.

[BarbulaM1]

SWA is a rather crappy airline, no noticable change in fares out of Denver when they moved in, and most of the time Frontier and United have better prices than they do with a better product. (not to mention with United I can connect from Colorado Springs where I live into Denver and get pretty much anyware). SWA here is crammed up into crappy Concourse C and is still 4th nearly 5th place in Denver.

[Russ]

SWA is a rather crappy airline, no noticable change in fares out of Denver when they moved in, and most of the time Frontier and United have better prices than they do with a better product. (not to mention with United I can connect from Colorado Springs where I live into Denver and get pretty much anyware). SWA here is crammed up into crappy Concourse C and is still 4th nearly 5th place in Denver.

Denver already had a LLC in Frontier. Its the Walmart of the airline industry. Bash it if you must but it makes money.

[drv4truk]

They will continue to bash Southwest until the next horse comes along. Just wait until Virgin America start operations. That will give them yet another airline to lay blame on if anything happens to any of the legacy carriers. :ssleepy:

[BarbulaM1]

Frontier acctualy makes quite a bit. It does seem that JetBlue and Frontier LCC with quality and aminties are what people are going to. F9 average load is in the 80% and may hop into the 90s for the summer out of Denver, while Southwest is lengering around 65%. And United has an average in the upper 70s. (mind you DEN is 63% O&D traffic, so you cannot say it is all United and F9 connecting traffic). And with F9's persuit of an international carrier to codeshare, the landscape is changing. As the new LCCs start banning with the legacy's.

[airline55]

are you saying critisism of WN is not justified?

[Russ]

are you saying critisism of WN is not justified?

Who are you talking to?

[WingsOTWorld]

I think its the guy who is "defending" or...if in a neutral standpoint....is trying to explain why SWA is successful is to whom that message is destined for.

In short: You Russ....lol.