29 replies to this topic

[juyounghan]

Hey everyone... Another controversial topic...

-Should Israel take over all of Palestine (West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights)

-Should Palestine take over all of Israel 

-Two state solution: Israel and Palestine divide up at their current borders

-Two state solution: A little modification to borders

-West Bank returned to Jordan,Gaza to Egypt and Golan Heights to Syria

-Something Else

 

 

[sputnik23]

Palestine should be independent. That's all I will say.

[Bilal]

Choice 1,2,and 5 aren't very good ideas..........

[Stevphfeniey]

Israel was put in the worst possible place. They should've put it in Queens, NYC and put Palestine under UN jurisdiction. 

[lake]

Israel should allow Palestine to go on it's own way as long as all of Palestine's Arabic friends promise to leave Israel alone. Then everyone is happy.

 

Very unlikely, but it'd be a nice compromise.

[ChiJohnAok]

Israel should allow Palestine to go on it's own way as long as all of Palestine's Arabic friends promise to leave Israel alone. Then everyone is happy.

Very unlikely, but it'd be a nice compromise.

Correct, it is very unlikely, in particular when the group in effective control of the Gaza Strip (Hamas) publicly calls for the destruction of Israel.

That is a bit of an impediment to a peaceful outcome...

[Stevphfeniey]

Israel is sort of to blame. iirc after World War II the UN set up a nice little plan to have the Jews in their own little state, the Arabs in their own state, and Jerusalem under international jurisdiction, because every Abrahamic religion happens to call Jerusalem their holiest of holy cities. But Israel basically told the world to **** off, went to war, established Israel as we know it today, and the rest is history. Although, to their credit, Israel have done a damn fine job of maintaining their claim to what used to be Palestine  

[TheOmnipotentAmerican]

Israel is like the little kid on the playground talking a lot of smack because it knows its olympian big brother(USA) has it's back. Big brother should just let little brother fight his own battles for a while. Israel's claim to the land is pretty bogus. It's like the Navajo getting support from every other power in the world and staking claim on the western US, then using the argument "we were given this land by the earthmother thousands of years ago."

[lake]

Israel is like the little kid on the playground talking a lot of smack because it knows its olympian big brother(USA) has it's back. Big brother should just let little brother fight his own battles for a while. Israel's claim to the land is pretty bogus. It's like the Navajo getting support from every other power in the world and staking claim on the western US, then using the argument "we were given this land by the earthmother thousands of years ago."

Actually, the Jews controlled that land for hundreds of years before the Persians took over. The Ottomans later allowed thousands of Jews to immigrate to Israel. Later on, Britain split Trans Jordan into a Muslim and Jewish state. Finally, Israel has been able to maintain it's land and deal with outside attacks for about 70 years by itself without American help. They were properly given the land, and have properly defended it.

 

Not that Israel couldn't have dealt with it's land better, but it doesn't seem bogus to me. 

[2ndAcr]

 UH, Israel does not talk big because it thinks the US has it's back. As wishy washy as our politicians and even our people are, I would barely trust us Americans as far as I could throw them, to do so is to invite destruction.

 

 Israel did not start the war of 1948, The UN created Israel (or re-created it), Israel offered all Arabs within her borders citizenship, the Arabs rejected that offer and went to war and promptly got their butt kicked. They tried again in the 50's, again in the 60's and again in 1973. Granted in the 1967 war, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike on the combined Arab armies.

 

 So overall, Israel has done quite well for herself on her own much to the hatred of all her sworn enemies. She producers massive numbers of Nobel winners, her economy is basically self sustaining, she made barren desert actually support life, yet the Palestinians (not really a true nationality) cannot seem to do anything on their own even though the world has pumped billions into the area strictly for them.

 

 If I ran Israel, I would build a nice fat wall, declare Palestine a sovereign country, cut off all water treatment, sewer service, food shipments (unless they pay for it), electrical power (unless they pay for it) and stop hosting jobs for the Pals. It would be up to the Pal Govt to provide those services. I would also state, that the first bullet, rocket, mortar shell that came into Israel would be viewed as a declaration of war and would be met with maximum force, no running to the UN, just flat out war. And I would not risk a single Israeli soldier in that war, I would commence artillery shelling until they begged for mercy. If the civilians don't want to become casualties, leave quick. I would use a rolling barrage starting at one border of Palestine and start walking it to the other border, people can flee before it gets there or stay and take the abuse. And once they leave, they are not coming back.

 

 I would give the peaceful Palestinians about a week max before they started a war by doing one of the above. Face it, the Palestinians have tried to take over or destroy every country that ever hosted them. Jordan, Lebanon are the first to come to mind.

 

 But almost all of your options are a almost certain destruction of Israel.

[Nexus8]

Giving Syria MORE land?

 

I think the US needs to get its ass out of their and if they can't stop fighting they can hope for other allies stepping in or they willfinally learn what wll happen without larger nations stepping in.

[TheOmnipotentAmerican]

 UH, Israel does not talk big because it thinks the US has it's back. As wishy washy as our politicians and even our people are, I would barely trust us Americans as far as I could throw them, to do so is to invite destruction.

 

 Israel did not start the war of 1948, The UN created Israel (or re-created it), Israel offered all Arabs within her borders citizenship, the Arabs rejected that offer and went to war and promptly got their butt kicked. They tried again in the 50's, again in the 60's and again in 1973. Granted in the 1967 war, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike on the combined Arab armies.

 

 So overall, Israel has done quite well for herself on her own much to the hatred of all her sworn enemies. She producers massive numbers of Nobel winners, her economy is basically self sustaining, she made barren desert actually support life, yet the Palestinians (not really a true nationality) cannot seem to do anything on their own even though the world has pumped billions into the area strictly for them.

 

 If I ran Israel, I would build a nice fat wall, declare Palestine a sovereign country, cut off all water treatment, sewer service, food shipments (unless they pay for it), electrical power (unless they pay for it) and stop hosting jobs for the Pals. It would be up to the Pal Govt to provide those services. I would also state, that the first bullet, rocket, mortar shell that came into Israel would be viewed as a declaration of war and would be met with maximum force, no running to the UN, just flat out war. And I would not risk a single Israeli soldier in that war, I would commence artillery shelling until they begged for mercy. If the civilians don't want to become casualties, leave quick. I would use a rolling barrage starting at one border of Palestine and start walking it to the other border, people can flee before it gets there or stay and take the abuse. And once they leave, they are not coming back.

 

 I would give the peaceful Palestinians about a week max before they started a war by doing one of the above. Face it, the Palestinians have tried to take over or destroy every country that ever hosted them. Jordan, Lebanon are the first to come to mind.

 

 But almost all of your options are a almost certain destruction of Israel.

 

BUT who gave the UN the right to take the land from the current occupants? Also, you seem to condone war crimes o.0.

 

Actually, the Jews controlled that land for hundreds of years before the Persians took over. The Ottomans later allowed thousands of Jews to immigrate to Israel. Later on, Britain split Trans Jordan into a Muslim and Jewish state. Finally, Israel has been able to maintain it's land and deal with outside attacks for about 70 years by itself without American help. They were properly given the land, and have properly defended it.

 

Not that Israel couldn't have dealt with it's land better, but it doesn't seem bogus to me. 

 

And the navajo controlled parts of the american west hundreds of years ago, dio you think that those in utah would react kindly if the UN said that the american west was now in possession of the navajo because they owned it first? If we pull backing A LOT more attacks will have to be dealt with than currently are, I'm not saying israel is militarily weak, just that if we didn't back them they would be overwhelmed.

[2ndAcr]

 What war crimes do I condone? War is neither nice nor civilized. It is flat out ugly, I have been involved in 3 combat deployments as an infantryman. I have seen it first hand. When the rules are spelled out, they know exactly what to expect. Maybe the Pal masses will hang the first scum bag that even thinks of tossing a bullet towards Israel.

 

 I avoided bringing up the fact that I remember the Pals dancing in the streets on 9/11 and I really think we owe them a few thousand cluster bombs for that. Plus since they elected Hamas and they are not much better than the PLO, Fatah and all the other Pal terror groups, they support terrorists so can reap what they sow. So they have no good will from me.

 

 Way too many feel the Pals are justified in terror or open attacks on civilians yet, condemn Israel if a single Pal civilian gets hurt. News flash, if my child or family is not safe, neither is my enemies. Rules of combat/war only work when both sides play by them, but to try and make one said abide by the rules while the other has free reign is plain stupid.

 

 There comes a time when the rules have to be tossed out the window so as to show the other side that making war on someone that has the power to remove you from the face of the Earth while you only possess the power to inflict pain is stupid. Last time I read the Geneva Convention, it deals with Nation States, not the armed forces of non nation states. Add to that, who is going to enforce the Geneva Conventions? Why no one. They exist so as both sides know the rule book, if one side tosses the rules out, the other side is free to no longer abide by the rules.

 

 The UN was a great idea, but it is now a worthless organization. We can play the "who owned what first" game until we are blue in the face. Every spot on Earth, even the spot your sitting right now, belonged to someone else first. But personally I feel the Kurdish people deserve a nation of their own long long before the Pals. The Pals can sit and rot for a few thousand more years for all I care. Israel screwed up by thinking you can shake hands with the devil and things will be hunky dory.

[TheOmnipotentAmerican]

"And I would not risk a single Israeli soldier in that war, I would commence artillery shelling until they begged for mercy. If the civilians don't want to become casualties, leave quick."

 

Shelling Civilians is a war crime. It is also unthinkable if you have any sense of morality.

 

 

"Rules of combat/war only work when both sides play by them, but to try and make one said abide by the rules while the other has free reign is plain stupid."

 

So we should just kill innocent civilians because they are? Those innocent civilians had nothing to do with the death of ours, just because another party commits a war crime does not give us the right to.

 

"The UN was a great idea, but it is now a worthless organization."

 

I agree, it needs to have actual repercussions, just because I tell a psycho it's wrong to kill people, if there is no possible punishment, what does he care about right or wrong?

[2ndAcr]

 What part of "leave quick" did you miss? As in leave, get out of the way, move, abandon ship. I said rolling barrage, not mass time on target which would be 1000X more devastating and much more effective militarily. Artillery lands in the east, head west fast.

 

How many civilians have been killed in war in history? They far outnumber the actual military deaths. But I was actually referring to not playing by the rules. Once they get tossed, feel free to do unto them. They target civilians, feel free to shoot every person you see with a gun, they toss the gun down, shoot them anyway (prisoners are optional), bad guys get wounded, sucks to be them.

 

 I never stated targeting civilians, though it is implied. How did we win WW2 again? By both defeating the enemy militarily and also beating the civilian population down to a level of "we are tired, please stop".

 

It is hard to convey the meaning to folks who have never been in combat, of the knowledge that if you are captured, you stand a extremely good chance of getting gutted like a pig on CNN or Al Jazerra, yet the same enemy get 3 meals and a cot, medical care (better than they would get if not captured) and all the good parts. Add to that the "enter true civilian home, threaten civilians, shoot at us from said home, threaten civilian again, run away, we enter and make life hell for said civilian" frustrations. The "when are you going to do so and so for us" except they refuse to do for themselves. The frustration of giving a town electrical power and actual clean water 1 week only to have all the material used for those purposes stolen by the same people while they hold their hand out again. Being denied all the means for us to actually defeating the enemy for fear that we will somehow make someone mad or hurt a civilian so we instead place my fellow troops in greater danger. In Iraq, we were denied supporting fires of any kind in urban areas, no artillery, no air support. We ran patrols down roads and ate IED's all the while the civilians who want something stand by and watch while we hit those IED's. They know they are there. So in my eyes they are just as guilty. The entire 18 months I spent in Iraq, my biggest fear was going to jail because of some stupid civilian over there. That was my stress load. Not of getting shot, wounded, blown up, I was/am a combat soldier that is my job. The best fun I had the whole time was denying military protection to the Red Cross and reporters. They had to take their chances all alone on the roads at the mercy of the very people they cry and moan over. And if they get into trouble they get to call the Iraqi police, we are not coming to help.

 

 I am a firm believer in not risking a single soldier when firepower can do the job.

[Hake.]

Ever heard of the ripple effect? Every action has a reaction. Israel need to get out of Palestine and (this is pushing it) pre-1967 borders. Their land was taken. As someone argued, my ancestors could have lost land in an Irish plantation they probably did. This doesn't give me the right to take this land.

[Luft]

I am very strongly in support of Palestine, and while I believe that the entire area occupied by Israel and the PLO belongs to Palestine, I realize that that is not possible in the current scenario. So, really, number four would be the best choice. However, modifications need to be made in other places (Jordan gains a bit of territory, Golan Heights is returned to Syria).

[Hake.]

Well, forcing people to leave their homes is pointless and hypocritical. It would be showing people that if you lose land and want it back, the best way is to take someone else's land, so the 2 state solution is favoured by me.

[Adam.Bomb]

In my opinion Israel should go back to their original borders and the palestinians be on that peninsula thingy majig that Egypt took away from israel in the 6 day war. 

[Stevphfeniey]

Adam, do you realize how absurd you just sounded?