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Aircraft Leasing Between Airlines & Used Market Overhaul

* * * * - 4 votes AE 4.0

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#1
craigdwatson

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I might be off track here, but I think the used and lease markets should be overhauled....

USED AIRCRAFT PURCHASE
  • Airline puts the aircraft on market at a fixed price (as currently do), awaits a buyer, pays a fee for placing on market for a custom time period in months, this can be cancelled for an additional fee...


  • Starting price is automatic, but after X months be able to offer discounts if unsold


  • If there isn't a buyer within X months, the advert is removed and airline has the aircraft returned to them.


  • Airline only receives payment once a buyer is found.
LEASE BETWEEN AIRLINES
  • Lease company operates within the airline under airline name.


  • Lease pool for each airline where they can place unused aircraft into, similar to the used market


  • Lease costs and revenue such as staff could be separate on income sheet, if a wet lease (includes staff and services) was an option.


  • The customer airline could make a contract offer to the leaser airline but with a fixed fee.


  • Leaser airline could view the customer airlines finance history? If after 2-3 missed payments the leaser airline could choose to terminate the lease and seize the aircraft, or give the customer airline extra time to make payment (Prices would be based on existing model).


  • To attract customer airlines, be able to offer up to X% discounts or free X amount of months depending on contract length.


  • Be able to open negotiations between airlines to purchase leased aircraft.
SCRAP
  • Same system for scrapping ancient aircraft which there is no interest for from buyers.

As airlines wont receive a payment until a buying is found, this I think would increase competition and help cut out run away growth, as you wouldn't be able to just throw most of your fleet into the used market for a big payment, which at the moment is very easy way to grow, which floods the market for growing airlines to snap up insane discounts once the market has been flooded.

System lease companies could still exist, but react by placing extra aircraft into the lease pool if their is no airline leasers available for popular aircraft.

Feedback very welcome :)

[EDIT] The reason I suggest prices to be automatic, is to keep it realistic, but the ability to make small discounts after a certain time. If in future cargo airlines and possible, they would likely snap up older aircraft

Edited by Yuxi, 06 January 2012 - 09:04 PM.
Removed poll (poll doesn't say much and this needs more discussion), pinned


#2
Guest_BigRosstheBoss_*

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I might be off track here, but I think the used and lease markets should be overhauled....

USED AIRCRAFT PURCHASE

  • Airline puts the aircraft on market at a fixed price (as currently do), awaits a buyer, pays a fee for placing on market for a custom time period in months, this can be cancelled for an additional fee...
  • Starting price is automatic, but after X months be able to offer discounts if unsold
  • If there isn't a buyer within X months, the advert is removed and airline has the aircraft returned to them.
  • Airline only receives payment once a buyer is found.
LEASE BETWEEN AIRLINES
  • Lease company operates within the airline under airline name.
  • Lease pool for each airline where they can place unused aircraft into, similar to the used market
  • Lease costs and revenue such as staff could be separate on income sheet, if a wet lease (includes staff and services) was an option.
  • The customer airline could make a contract offer to the leaser airline but with a fixed fee.
  • Leaser airline could view the customer airlines finance history? If after 2-3 missed payments the leaser airline could choose to terminate the lease and seize the aircraft, or give the customer airline extra time to make payment (Prices would be based on existing model).
  • To attract customer airlines, be able to offer up to X% discounts or free X amount of months depending on contract length.
  • Be able to open negotiations between airlines to purchase leased aircraft.
SCRAP
  • Same system for scrapping ancient aircraft which there is no interest for from buyers.

As airlines wont receive a payment until a buying is found, this I think would increase competition and help cut out run away growth, as you wouldn't be able to just throw most of your fleet into the used market for a big payment, which at the moment is very easy way to grow, which floods the market for growing airlines to snap up insane discounts once the market has been flooded.

System lease companies could still exist, but react by placing extra aircraft into the lease pool if their is no airline leasers available for popular aircraft.

Feedback very welcome :)


I kinda agree cause I know how to game the system easily to move planes between my airlines (stumbled on accident) and it was gamed in the past for Money.

#3
Delta787

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I might be off track here, but I think the used and lease markets should be overhauled....

USED AIRCRAFT PURCHASE

  • Airline puts the aircraft on market at a fixed price (as currently do), awaits a buyer, pays a fee for placing on market for a custom time period in months, this can be cancelled for an additional fee...
  • Starting price is automatic, but after X months be able to offer discounts if unsold
  • If there isn't a buyer within X months, the advert is removed and airline has the aircraft returned to them.
  • Airline only receives payment once a buyer is found.
LEASE BETWEEN AIRLINES
  • Lease company operates within the airline under airline name.
  • Lease pool for each airline where they can place unused aircraft into, similar to the used market
  • Lease costs and revenue such as staff could be separate on income sheet, if a wet lease (includes staff and services) was an option.
  • The customer airline could make a contract offer to the leaser airline but with a fixed fee.
  • Leaser airline could view the customer airlines finance history? If after 2-3 missed payments the leaser airline could choose to terminate the lease and seize the aircraft, or give the customer airline extra time to make payment (Prices would be based on existing model).
  • To attract customer airlines, be able to offer up to X% discounts or free X amount of months depending on contract length.
  • Be able to open negotiations between airlines to purchase leased aircraft.
SCRAP
  • Same system for scrapping ancient aircraft which there is no interest for from buyers.

As airlines wont receive a payment until a buying is found, this I think would increase competition and help cut out run away growth, as you wouldn't be able to just throw most of your fleet into the used market for a big payment, which at the moment is very easy way to grow, which floods the market for growing airlines to snap up insane discounts once the market has been flooded.

System lease companies could still exist, but react by placing extra aircraft into the lease pool if their is no airline leasers available for popular aircraft.

Feedback very welcome :)


I really agree with this overhaul. I agree tht alot of airlines on here grow to fast and big, like what airline in the real world has over 2,000 aircraft? First of all it would be a logistical nightmare and payroll would be through the roof. But this is a good idea. Let's hope the higher ups agree to this overhaul. I say we get them to push it thro :whip: :aggressive:

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#4
craigdwatson

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Thanks guys for feed back, forgot to mention...

This would also make the depreciation factor have more influence on how airlines structure their fleet

:)

#5
Moldova96

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Also issue number 1 part of this idea is already being looked at regarding an airlkine leasing out their own aircraft at a seperate price. The system does already remove aircraft from the used market after a certain period of time as far as I remember.

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#6
Yuxi

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The first few versions of AE used this kind of used market system, but it was heavily abused. The current system makes it as fair as possible and prevents people from setting up feeder airlines to get around delivery limits. With the current delivery system (every airline gets 1 every X weeks regardless of backlog), this would be wide open to abuse.

Maybe we can have a variation of the current system where the aircraft is still owned by the airline until it's actually sold? I think that's what you're trying to get at :P

#7
Yuxi

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Could you not make some sort of Code that would Detect whether or not You're selling aircraft to yourself? :P
Something to the extent of "TransJetAirways" and "TransCityAirways" Would both be listed as "FoxTrident airlines", And i couldn't trade between them, But if i wanted to sell to say, Flunjace Airlines, That would be listed as "Yuxi Airline" And would be allowed to go through?

Not the best example, but it sounds like it could solve a few "People are cheating" Issues..


In theory yes, but there are plenty of people creating duplicate accounts to do this so it's not foolproof in the least. Recent market problems have shown that if there's a loophole, it WILL be heavily exploited. :P

#8
Yuxi

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I agree tht alot of airlines on here grow to fast and big, like what airline in the real world has over 2,000 aircraft?


I think that is a symptom of the unbalanced economic model, and changing the used market would not fix it. That would require more realistic revenues and costs to solve fundamentally. :P

#9
craigdwatson

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Thanks for reply yuxi....

What I was getting at is best of both systems :P

Automated prices, but you don't get any cash until someone else actualy buys the aircraft you placed in the used market, maybe if it was purchased as soon as it was placed in market repeatedly between the same airlines this could be flagged as possible cheating and multi-account users? :rofl2:

#10
Yuxi

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I like the idea of an airline not getting paid until a buyer actually buys the aircraft. :)

What about leasing companies buying used aircraft and re-leasing them? :P

#11
Delta787

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I like the idea of an airline not getting paid until a buyer actually buys the aircraft. :)
I like this.

What about leasing companies buying used aircraft and re-leasing them? :P

This could also work. What if the airline wanted to lease the aircraft out, say like for a seasonal route or for charters? Maybe that could be implemented in the game. I think I will start a topic on "Charter Flights in AE 4.0" and see what the feedback is like.

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#12
craigdwatson

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Like the charter idea, but until scheduling is introduced maybe this could be considered as leasing for shorter periods. Thanks for the response by the way Yuxi ;)

#13
ccvl

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The first few versions of AE used this kind of used market system, but it was heavily abused. The current system makes it as fair as possible and prevents people from setting up feeder airlines to get around delivery limits. With the current delivery system (every airline gets 1 every X weeks regardless of backlog), this would be wide open to abuse.

Maybe we can have a variation of the current system where the aircraft is still owned by the airline until it's actually sold? I think that's what you're trying to get at :P

And how exactly? People selling only to their double accounts?
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#14
Mobeer

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I'm liking the idea of prices falling the longer a plane is on the market, but perhaps also there is a need to price planes according to how many there are on the market? In a new world with a completely empty used market, every new plane is snapped up straight away - surely then prices could be much higher. Similarly, if I want to sell old 737-400s in a world with a used bin packed with 737-800 and A320, then the selling price should be much lower.

#15
Lax7

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I guess what you could sort of do is create a few virtual "lease companies" where different companies have different aircrafts and deals for an airline depending on their order. Its a bit different from what everyone has suggested, but i mean spicing it up step by step will sure make it fun. Each lease companies can be allocated a certain amount of aircrafts and have different lease options depending on the buyer. I think price wise and such is fine at the moment, id rather think about infrastructure and additional details and features that can be added instead of pricing. Same goes for used aircrafts, airlines and companies or aircraft brokers could be present and have deals

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#16
pseudoswede

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We need a mass buying/leasing/scrapping option. However, they should be implemented over the course of the round.

Years 0-5: No mass buying/leasing/scrapping options allowed. It allows for airlines starting out a fair chance to get aircraft in the used market.
Years 5-10: Mass buying allowed.
Years 10-15: Mass leasing and buying allowed.
Years 15-end: Mass leasing/buying/scrapping allowed.

#17
Nexus8

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You need to mmake it 5-10 Mass buying allowed and then Mass leassing and buying in 10-15

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#18
pseudoswede

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Good point. Post has been edited.

#19
LLC

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Will this "USED MARKET OVERHAUL" only apply to "Realistic Worlds" ? ... if it does then yes, but if not then HELL NO  O_O :sick3:
 

I do not want this "USED MARKET OVERHAUL" applied to "Open Worlds"  :sulk:



#20
jpeg

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I really agree with this overhaul. I agree tht alot of airlines on here grow to fast and big, like what airline in the real world has over 2,000 aircraft? First of all it would be a logistical nightmare and payroll would be through the roof. But this is a good idea. Let's hope the higher ups agree to this overhaul. I say we get them to push it thro :whip: :aggressive:

 

I wouldnt be surprised if a few airlines reach over 2000 aircraft in their fleet in the next year or two many like american and southwest have large orders to add to their fleet that will put each of them around 1500 plus 







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