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Airport Space Limitations

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#1
simmo1111

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I think to make the game a bit more realistic, there should be a limitation of to what size aircraft you can use in a particular airport, eg, An Airbus A380 would not fit into London City in real life.:eureka:
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#2
FlyWorld Air

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This has been discussed before, but I dunno why Miller doesn't implement it.
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#3
miller22 (inactive)

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It's on the list. It'll be done with a runway length limitation, but its now an issue of finding a maximum runway length per airplane. I've seen 767-400's in LGA on 7,000 ft. runways. Yet if they want to go 3,000 miles, they need more in the range of 10,000 ft.

So you see, there is no minimum runway length per aircraft, but rather a spectrum of limits. Even then, you can have the option of limiting the number of passengers to maximize range or minimize runway.

In the end, there's five variables that will need to be derived:
#1 - How much fuel is required for the trip? (I have this, but won't say how :))
#2 - How much weight will this require?
Add the fuel to the BOW of the aircraft to find this.
#3 - What is the weight limit for the runway the aircraft wants to use?
There is no "number" for this as its not really the runway's number. This is the limit for each aircraft on each runway. This is the real problem since this data is not readily available, and when it is, it only comes in graph form. We need it in equation form.
#4 - How much weight is left for payload?
Subtract the BOW + required fuel from the runway weight restriction, and that's how much weight you can carry in pax and bags.
#5 - Limit the number of passengers to complete the route.
This is ultimately the number we're looking for, if it's even possible. For instance, a 767-400 may be able to operate LGA-LHR, but with very few passengers. Likewise, they can do LGA-ATL with a full load of pax, because you don't need as much fuel. It's all about managing weight.

Answer #3, and we're in business, but I've been looking for a long time, and I'm not sure it can be done without shelling out huge amounts of $$$.

#4
FlyWorld Air

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I can get many kinda of data, but I'm afraid that I cannot get runway data on my own. I do however have a relative who works as an airport inspector for FedEx... I think the next time I get in touch with him I can ask him if there's anything he can get his hands on, but don't get your hopes up as it's highly improbable.

BTW I'm finding it really difficult to make money in sim2 with airports with less than 5,000,000 PAX (For example, I'm only getting $11,000 on NAS-HAV), NAS has 10,000,000 pax and HAV has 5,000,000... I think the equation needs slightly tweaking considering these are both relatively big airports. If it's like this for these airports, I think places like Africa and South America will be very difficult to start up in, and places like the U.S.A., Asia and Europe will become oversaturated.
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#5
Kontio

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So you see, there is no minimum runway length per aircraft, but rather a spectrum of limits.

...

Answer #3, and we're in business, but I've been looking for a long time, and I'm not sure it can be done without shelling out huge amounts of $$$.


That sounds great, the game really needs some kind of limits as to what planes you can fly to what airports. Have you considered a simpler model, in case the realistic model you outlined proves not to be doable? I am thinking something along the lines of restricting the aircraft size and/or possible route length based on the runway length of the airport. That would be relatively simple to program (?) and runway length data is relatively easy to obtain, if not already in the database. Of course it would only be a crude approximation of the real-life situation, but better than the current situation where you can operate long-distance flights with huge aircraft from any airport in the database.
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#6
OAAir

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#3 is going to be tough as there are actually several factors, some of which are straightforward, some more complex. The two main ones though would be runway loading and thrust/weight ratios,

The first would be the runway loading . It is the most simple and is calculated in pounds per square inch (or kilos per square meter). For the runways, the issue isn't the overall weight of the aircraft, but rather the how the load is distributed so that you avoid cracking the pavement. That is why you 4 main gear on the 747, triple main gear on your heavy DC-10s and A330/340s and the triple axle gear of the 777 - to help distribute the load over a greater surface area. This is your first limitation. If the runway can't support the aircraft, it really doesn't matter how much excess thrust it has.

For the thrust to weight, that will always be a graph and it will always vary for each airframe and engine combination scaling by weight (the higher the weight or lower the thrust, the longer the needed runway). For that information, there simply can't be a single number.

So bottom line, once you pass the first hurdle, which can be an absolute, easily calculated number, you hit the second, which is not.

I have noticed in the past that each aircraft/engine combination already has a minimum runway length entered in the game. I realize that it wouldn't be perfect, but why not use that as a temporary way of limiting the aircraft while searching for a better solution? I think it would add another layer of challenge than seeing who can be the first to get the most A380s on every route.
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Sim 1: 21506
Sim 2: 17585

#7
miller22 (inactive)

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If I can get a coefficient of lift or even just a wing area number for each of the aircraft, I could integrally derive an approximate runway requirement based on weight and the known thrust value. Does anyone know where I can find one of these two values for each of our aircraft?

#8
OAAir

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It looks like the wing area for each aircraft can be found by looking them up at http://www.airliners.net/info/. I'll pull the data out for each aircraft in game and send them to you via PM
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Sim 1: 21506
Sim 2: 17585

#9
FlyWorld Air

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I'm making a list as we speak.

You listen to me! I'm the official list of data guy here =P.
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#10
FlyWorld Air

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I have some of the major planes in sim2 here, I'll add the sim1 a/c (or those I can find) courtesy of airliners.net:
AIRBUS:
Airbus A300-600: 2798.7 sq ft/ 260.0m sq
Airbus A310: 2357.3 sq ft/ 219.0m sq
Airbus A318: 1320.0 sq ft/ 122.6m sq
Airbus A319-100: 1317.5 sq ft/ 122.4m sq
Airbus A320-200: 1319.7 sq ft/ 122.6m sq
Airbus A321-200: 1320.0 sq ft/ 122.6m sq
Airbus A330-200: 3908.4 sq ft/ 363.1m sq
Airbus A330-300: 3908.4 sq ft/ 363.1m sq
Airbus A340-200: 3908.4 sq ft/ 363.1m sq
Airbus A340-300: 3908.4 sq ft/ 363.1m sq
Airbus A340-500: 4704.0 sq ft/ 437.0m sq
Airbus A340-600: 4704.0 sq ft/ 437.0m sq
Airbus A380: UNKNOWN
ATR:
ATR 42: 586.6 sq ft/ 54.5m sq
ATR 72: 656.6 sq ft/ 61.0m sq
BAE:
BAe 146/ Avro RJ: 832.0 sq ft/ 77.3m sq
BAe J-31: 270.0 sq ft/ 25.1 m sq
BOEING:
Boeing 717 wing area: 1000.7 sq ft/ 93.0 m sq
Boeing 737-600 wing area: 1344 sq ft/ 125.0m sq
Boeing 737-700 wing area: 1344 sq ft/ 125.0m sq
Boeing 737-800 wing area: 1344 sq ft/ 125.0m sq
Boeing 737-900 wing area: 1344 sq ft/ 125.0m sq
Boeing 747-400 wing area: 5825 sq ft/ 541.2m sq
Boeing 747-400ER wing area: 5825 sq ft/ 541.2m sq
Boeing 757-200 wing area: 1994 sq ft/ 185.3m sq
Boeing 757-300 wing area: 1994 sq ft/ 185.3m sq
Boeing 767-300ER wing area: 3050 sq ft/ 283.3m sq
Boeing 767-400ER wing area: UNKNOWN (probably same as 767-300ER)
Boeing 777-200 wing area: 4605 sq ft/ 427.8m sq
Boeing 777-300 wing area: 4605 sq ft/ 427.8m sq
Boeing 787-8: UNKNOWN
BOMBARDIER:
Bombardier CRJ100/200: 587.1 sq ft/ 54.5 m sq
Bombardier CRJ700: UNKNOWN
Bombardier CRJ900: UNKNOWN
Bombardier Q100/200: 585.0 sq ft/ 54.4 m sq
Bombardier Q300: 605.0 sq ft/ 56.2 m sq
Bombardier Q400: 679.0 sq ft/ 63.1 m sq
EMBRAER:
Embraer EMB-120: 424.4 sq ft/ 39.4 m sq
Embraer ERJ-135/140: 550.9 sq ft/ 51.2 m sq
Embraer ERJ-145: 550.9 sq ft/ 51.2 m sq
Embraer E170/175/190/195: UNKNOWN
FAIRCHILD-DORNIER:
Dornier 328: 430.6 sq ft/ 40.0m m sq
Dornier 328JET: 430.6 sq ft/ 40.0 m sq
RAYTHEON:
Raytheon Beech 1900D: 310.0 sq ft/ 28.8m sq
SAAB:
Saab 2000: 600.0 sq ft/ 55.7m sq
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#11
miller22 (inactive)

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blech. Now I have to get back into integral calculus. I honestly thought I'd never use it again once I got out of high school.

But seriously, thanks for the info.

#12
Maestro69

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I can get many kinda of data, but I'm afraid that I cannot get runway data on my own. I do however have a relative who works as an airport inspector for FedEx... I think the next time I get in touch with him I can ask him if there's anything he can get his hands on, but don't get your hopes up as it's highly improbable.


There is a website on the internet which will give all of the runway data for every airport in the world.

World Aero Data

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#13
miller22 (inactive)

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I have the runway data from Dafif (the same source Great Circle Mapper uses). That's not a problem. Its the aircraft that's the problem.

#14
Maestro69

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I have the runway data from Dafif (the same source Great Circle Mapper uses). That's not a problem. Its the aircraft that's the problem.


Oh well, my bad on that one.. :)

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