19 replies to this topic

[zelalemon]

Hi guys, I'm pretty new to this game and after reading through the forums for a little while I had a question: Why do some people care so much about other people making so called 'spamlines'? Whether you play realistically or you make spamlines, who cares about what anyone else does? Hope this made sense

[PingPong]

Spamlines ruin the game for other players by saturating routes with over-cheap tickets and utilising their aircraft to the limit with the lowest quality IFS/IFE at the highest prices. This makes it near-impossible for realistic airlines to compete.

I have noticed that you're playing in several different realistic worlds with different rules. To learn the game, try S4E. You start with $100,000,000 not $7,500,000 and own your starting aircraft, not lease it. Also, losts of brand new aircraft enter the used market the moment they're released.

[Hans.]

There's a wide-range of what people call spam-lines, but basically its any airline that swamps routes so that other airlines can't make a good profit on them. It gets kinda frustrating if you're trying to use a regional jet, for example, to fly a route that has demand of 200 passengers daily but then a spamliner comes in and flies a 747 on the same route and thus your airline can't make any profit. 

 

Personally, I just try to avoid spamlines by flying point to point and using regional aircraft so that I can keep my costs low and won't get crushed if a spamline takes over some of my routes.

[chaliceofdeath]

The spam lines are not competing for the green pax though.

For example - let's say there is a route from my hq in Bangkok to Dubai. I have a hub in BKK, and my alliance friend has a hub in Dubai. Once we build up blue pax demand in our respective networks, we are no longer in the normal green pax game. I can throw 10 gates worth of flights on that route for eventually whatever price I want. You can come along with your realistic airline, charge good prices, and take all of the green pax. We both profit...just differently.

I don't know why anyone would come along an drop a ton of seats for $1...you lose a ton of money if you're playing for the green pax, and my blue pax are never touched by your airline, so there's no reason for me to drop my prices.

[atnt71eb]

Spamlines ruin the game for other players by saturating routes with over-cheap tickets and utilising their aircraft to the limit with the lowest quality IFS/IFE at the highest prices. This makes it near-impossible for realistic airlines to compete.

I have noticed that you're playing in several different realistic worlds with different rules. To learn the game, try S4E. You start with $100,000,000 not $7,500,000 and own your starting aircraft, not lease it. Also, losts of brand new aircraft enter the used market the moment they're released.

 

There is no such thing as a realistic airline in a game as simple as this one.

[chaliceofdeath]

To me, I think the realistic airline is more of a role playing idea, which I'm all for. They set self imposed restrictions on their airline and then compete.

As far as the spam lines ruining things by changing $1 for tickets...who does that? If I've set up my blue pax network properly, then I initially charge what the default rate is, then increase my prices as more silly blue paxers flock to my airline.

[PingPong]

To me, I think the realistic airline is more of a role playing idea, which I'm all for. They set self imposed restrictions on their airline and then compete.
As far as the spam lines ruining things by changing $1 for tickets...who does that? If I've set up my blue pax network properly, then I initially charge what the default rate is, then increase my prices as more silly blue paxers flock to my airline.

I'm not saying that all spamlines do what I explained. However, the criteria above are the most common which I've seen, although admittedly often by noobs.

[Stevphfeniey]

There is no such thing as a realistic airline in a game as simple as this one.

Well my airline fleet sizes, their makeups, where the individual aircraft types fly and how much they're used are decently well researched and backed with data. This leads to my route networks being equivalent in scale to real world airlines, which can be confirmed with relatively easy to obtain data. In-flight service conforms with what the standard for the airline type and region on my airlines, albeit I put all five-star IFE on my planes because that's how I roll. Additionally I use spam-IFS to simulate either government subsidies (of which IRL airlines get a shitload of), or general credit support which private airlines get from banks. I only do this because the credit and loan system in AE is primitive and limited.

Staffing levels and staff pay on my airlines are kept artificially high, simulating upward market pressure on wages from worker demands. All of this translates to about a 1-7% profit margin, which after doing a bit of digging turns out to be about the a average for IRL airlines.

I'd say my airlines are pretty realistic if you ask me.

[atnt71eb]

Well my airline fleet sizes, their makeups, where the individual aircraft types fly and how much they're used are decently well researched and backed with data. This leads to my route networks being equivalent in scale to real world airlines, which can be confirmed with relatively easy to obtain data. In-flight service conforms with what the standard for the airline type and region on my airlines, albeit I put all five-star IFE on my planes because that's how I roll. Additionally I use spam-IFS to simulate either government subsidies (of which IRL airlines get a shitload of), or general credit support which private airlines get from banks. I only do this because the credit and loan system in AE is primitive and limited.

Staffing levels and staff pay on my airlines are kept artificially high, simulating upward market pressure on wages from worker demands. All of this translates to about a 1-7% profit margin, which after doing a bit of digging turns out to be about the a average for IRL airlines.

I'd say my airlines are pretty realistic if you ask me.

 

Sorry, still far from realistic. Have you checked the fuel consumption, CASM, RASM, LF, and other cost factors against reality? Hint: they're way off.

 

Furthermore, are you running banks of schedules from hubs and making managerial tradeoffs between connectivity across your network versus efficiency? I could go on but the mere fact of the absence of a real transfer market makes this unrealistic.

[Stevphfeniey]

Sounds like you know a lot about this, you should try applying that knowledge to the development of the game

[zortan]

Cuz Spamlines put you out of business

[HanTseng]

Spamlines are a problem in this game. If you can, try to avoid them whenever possible. They have too many flights and provide too many seats.

[Book Siberia]

Spamlines are a problem in this game. If you can, try to avoid them whenever possible. They have too many flights and provide too many seats.

 

 

Too many flights? Too many seats?  There is no such thing!  Especially since filling all those seats with blue pax doesn't in any way impact a realistic airline's ability to scoop up the daily demand, i.e., the full fare (green) passengers.

 

What DOES impact your ability is when other realistic airlines attempt to co-opt your full-fare passengers by lowering their ticket price.   

 

Sadly, what happens over and over is this: Some realistic player puts flights on and picks up the majority or the entirety of the daily demand.  A few other airliners come along, one or two of which will likely be spamliners.   Now, as it so happens, the spamliners - by virtue of creating hubs 1st and placing thousands of seats on that one route- seemingly swamp daily demand, which upsets the other (especially realistic) airlines.   What you all are missing, however, is the fact that spamliners are not picking up passengers from daily demand - rather they are picking up connecting passengers.

 

So instead of glomming on to the fact that it is the other airlines (the one who lower their fare price to lure some of the daily demand away from you) who are the real problem, instead fasten onto the idea that "those damn spamliners come in and dump thousands of seats and ruin the route for the rest of us!"  and complain about what they see as unfair.  After all, the one who provide all those excess seats must be the problem, right?

 

Wrong.  Rather, the problem that the non-spamliners are having is that the sum of the total provided seats earmarked for the green passengers total up to more than the actual daily demand, thus necessitating a price war in an attempt to maintain 100% seat fill rates.   But this has nothing to do with the spamliner, as he or she is not contending for the same kind of passenger.

 

Recognizing this dynamic is the 1st step newer players need to understand in order to improve their game play.

[zortan]

Spamlines ruin the market by putting A LOT of seats on, and then really dropping prices. Airlines with some semblance of quality are left unable to compete.

[Book Siberia]

Spamlines ruin the market by putting A LOT of seats on, and then really dropping prices. Airlines with some semblance of quality are left unable to compete.

 

And yet I have already told you that merely by creating a hub at one or both endpoints of the contested route, you can - once you have amassed enough total passengers along all your routes -recover any seats you lost because of such a spamliner.  (to refill those seats usually requires you to open that route, and hit the save button again.)

 

In other words, it is impossible for such a spamliner to actually impact you once you create those hubs and hit the save button (or the reset) for that route.  Given that the creating of hubs is the proper maneuver to marginalize or outright eliminate the effects of other airlines price cutting on a contested route, why do players continue to claim that spamliners ruin the game for them?

 

Quit worrying about what other players are doing, play the way you want to, and get on with the game - because most assuredly the other players are doing just that. 

[zortan]

And yet I have already told you that merely by creating a hub at one or both endpoints of the contested route, you can - once you have amassed enough total passengers along all your routes -recover any seats you lost because of such a spamliner.  (to refill those seats usually requires you to open that route, and hit the save button again.)

 

In other words, it is impossible for such a spamliner to actually impact you once you create those hubs and hit the save button (or the reset) for that route.  Given that the creating of hubs is the proper maneuver to marginalize or outright eliminate the effects of other airlines price cutting on a contested route, why do players continue to claim that spamliners ruin the game for them?

 

Quit worrying about what other players are doing, play the way you want to, and get on with the game - because most assuredly the other players are doing just that. 

the thing is, though, realistic/quality airlines don't open hubs every time they get 5 gates!

[rotaryspd]

Why direct anger at the spamliners rather than the game mechanics that allow them?  Ending the endless circle of blue pax is a simple as counting only O&D pax to draw blue pax from.  Unrealistic frequencies would be addressed simply by reducing demand to 1/4 (those two work very nicely together to duplicate real world airlines where connecting passengers are required to fill flights).  Limiting the size of terminals that could be built (to the number of gates available for lease, for example) would prevent the ridiculous number of gates that cost nothing to build.  Hard limits on the number of O&D passengers would end the bottomless price wars.  And, in spite of having one flavor of spamline myself, I'd support each of the above--it'd make the game much better.  And beyond that, these are small changes from a programming standpoint, so they're actually practical rather than waiting for a whole new version of AE.

 

It's a game, the goal is to win.

Winning the game requires getting the most money.

Getting the most money requires having the most passengers.

Having the most passengers requires unrealistic numbers of flights--which the game obliges on because of a few gaps in game mechanics.

 

Also, I have little sympathy for people who complain about competition limiting what routes they can fly.  That's how it works in the real world, and that's pretty much the point of the game and what makes it fun.  You think DAL is about to let someone edge them out of ATL?  Or do you think there's luv lost (get it?) between UAL and SW in Denver?

[Book Siberia]

the thing is, though, realistic/quality airlines don't open hubs every time they get 5 gates!

 

 

Several points here:

1) Apparently what you mean by "quality" is "purist" - because there are plenty of realistic/ semi-realistic airlines that are anything but quality!

 

2) Don't confuse building a hub with operating as an actual hub.  Constructing a hub means that you open that airport to the possibility of capturing some connecting passengers, which, realistically, most airlines do.  Actually operating as a hub, on the other hand,  means that you actively utilize that airport as a centralized endpoint for numerous routes systematically and repeatedly in accordance to that airport's regulations, stipulations, and agreements.

 

In this game, you can "open" a hub, and yet continue to operate realistically at your option.  Think of it this way - pretend that governments in this virtual world have decreed that you can only pick up connecting passengers by formally paying a licensing fee (i.e., the cost of "building" a hub) and agreeing to be bound by certain regulations thereunder.  

 

3) Most important of all - you don't get to unilaterally declare how other people can play - nor do you get to authoritatively declare exactly whether someone is a realistic player or not.   Not that it matters - the dev states plainly: play how you wish to play.   It can't get any clearer than that.

[Infestation]

Spam lines based in the EU will sometimes open hubs at every major airport and use up all the gates. So a new airline comes along but can't find any places to be HQ at because of low amount of gates and they don't have the money to build a new terminal yet

[rotaryspd]

Spam lines based in the EU will sometimes open hubs at every major airport and use up all the gates. So a new airline comes along but can't find any places to be HQ at because of low amount of gates and they don't have the money to build a new terminal yet

That is strategy and real airlines did it too...we all remember "No way, BA!", and "Britain's flag carrier"...

I deliberately will use larger aircraft into competitive airports without a terminal so I don't fill all my slots just to keep out competition.