Buying planes,a warning aka new game rules

If you encounter a plane on the public market, offered at 50% value, don't buy it. The anti cheat commity considers this to be cheating.

I am aware that cheaters and feeders abuse the 50% (and 200%) limits for their benefits but apparantly everybody using these limits is considered to be a cheater. I don't think this logic is correct (A leads to B does not mean B leads to A !!!) but this seems to be the current situation no matter what I think.

Miller, TorqueWrench, please: If 50% is not considered to be appropriate then don't offer this in the game as an option.

I would have to agree with highspeed on this one. If you consider the 50% cheating then why do you allow people to do it?

You got a message about buying aircraft at half price on the public market? Either somebody has lost it or there must be something your not telling us.

If you encounter a plane on the public market, offered at 50% value, don't buy it. The anti cheat commity considers this to be cheating.

I am aware that cheaters and feeders abuse the 50% (and 200%) limits for their benefits but apparantly everybody using these limits is considered to be a cheater. I don't think this logic is correct (A leads to B does not mean B leads to A !!!) but this seems to be the current situation no matter what I think.

Miller, TorqueWrench, please: If 50% is not considered to be appropriate then don't offer this in the game as an option.

Highspeed, you are one last player I would want to make a comment on, but I have read that (Only a Guess) that the Cheater Coppers have knocked on your door. I will now draw to your attention my post, of this very last point you make: (50%)

I said this yesterday

ADDED -
Quote:
I must add this too - I know many players sit for hours pressing F5 on the keyboard waiting for that every cheaper aircraft, buying this and re-selling makes many players advance, NOW I do ask all this question to the Cheat Police, is performing this simple task (CHEATING) too?

View this here: http://forums.airlin...read.php?t=2511

Now Mr Highspeed, are you saying that if ANY player buys an aircraft off this used market at lower than say a certain % that is classed as cheating? Or can you explain more?

As, if this is the case, then WE ALL are guilty as charged !!!!

Or, quite simple way to stop this is REMOVE the used market and have a larger Mothball % of value and NO inter-Game aircraft sales FULL STOP

Grrr... I was typing a lengthy response but somehow I must have hit a wrong button or I encountered a timeout of some sort. Expect a lengthy response with full details later, once I have retyped it (in an external program this time so I do not hit the same problem again).

My latest reply to the administrators:

I buy an aircraft from the public market If I spot one and if it matches the requirements I have set in advance. If I buy it, someone else cannot. Ergo, if I am faster than the next guy, it's mine.
Indeed, that's not a coincidence but I fail to see the point you make: that it is cheating.

Also, I have asked what the minimum price to pay should be. I cannot follow your rules unless you announce them in advance.

Previous game rule: buying and selling between 50% and 200% of value. Obviously you (who are you by the way?) do not approve of 50%. I guess (and I cannot do any better than guessing at this point) you will also not approve of 51%. Where is the limit?

For the record: I feel you are treating me unfair. The first message was "please explain", the next message was "you have been warned before, this is the final warning". I am not in a position where (a) my first warning is the final warning and ( I do not know which rules I have to comply with.

I remember having a war with Travelhouse, grabbing Eskimo Air's J-31s at ridiculously low prices last round. I do not know the circumstances but grabbing random 50% planes from the public should remain legal.

Perhaps 50% value should not be used on private salues, but the public market it should reamain as it is, but without the cheater snoopers.

In the past most of these messages have proved to be half truths at best.

If you want to post correspondence from the staff, then quote it in full (I'm assuming you've gotten more than just those 2 sentences).

Full story:

At the start of this round I got lucky and was able to buy and sell with profit. This resulted in my airline at position 1 for a while.

No matter who is #1, people will complain, I think that is to be expected. However, I think many of the complaints were from people who's 50% valued plane I "stole" from the public market. Those people are pissed, because they did not get to buy the plane, I did.

A couple of days ago I got "queried". All my buying occured on the public market yet this does not mean I am not cheating. So far, nothing wrong as indeed it does not mean I am not cheating. It also does not mean I am by the way. The message continues, telling that I have bought from feeders and airlines that have not done anything but selling one aircraft for peanuts (my words). (side note: chances are these two descriptions can be reduced to one: the second category will also be feeders). Again, nothing wrong with this statement. I do not investigate airlines before I buy their aircraft. If AE knows these are feeders, I believe them.

Now the trouble begins: According to AE adminstration/cheat committee, there are only three possibilities:
-1- buy from friends
-2- buy from alliance members
-3- buy from other airlines I own.
The question in that message: "Please explain your actions".

I did respond in a short amount of time. I have told the administrators:
-1- as far as I know, I do not know any of the players in AE except from the game
-2- I have no other airlines
-3- I cannot remember buying from alliance members but if I did, it was 10% below value

(by the way: I am 100% certain I did not knowingly buy from alliance members at all this round)

I continued by telling the actual situation: I visit the public market as often as I can. If the plane is cheap, it's mine if I am fast enough.
I ended my message with some details about my transactions with player 8561 last round (I explained this on the forum at that time, in order to avoid any confusion) and added a list of airlines with suspicious transactions.


After this, I have done as I was asked. I have explained my actions and, as they are legit in my book, I see no reason to stop. Believe me when I say there was no warning whatsoever in that message, nor a line saying I should stop buying aircraft.

Today a new response came in. Start: "Even after you were previously warned, your actions continue." Short description of the remainder of that message: last warning, must not buy at 50%, next action is huge penalty or even reset.

Please notice: the first warning is also the final warning. Also notice: "50%" is wrong. Not: "below 60%", "below 75%" or even "below 100%", only a statement about 50%. Who is willing to take their word upon it? Is there anyone thinking right now that 51% would be OK? What number is? Right now Airline Empires has become Russian Roulette.

If you care to know: I keep record of my buying and selling. I am human, so I may have forgotten to write down one or two but I believe my records are correct. This round I have sold 25 aircraft, including the two I got in the beginning. Three 2nd hand planes remain, the rest of my fleet is bought new. So, I have bought 26 2nd hand aircraft, this is what all the fuzz is about. We are talking about $35,000,000 or so (rough estimate).
Do the math yourself:

70 Beech <yr1mar24 SOLD 6,100,000 bought for $5,900,000 from ?????
Aircraft number 70, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to SANN AIR WAYS for the price of $6,100,000.
287 J-31 <yr1jan3 5yo at game start
Aircraft number 287, a J-31, was successfully sold to Air France for the price of $5,327,790.
288 J-31 <yr1jan3 5yo at game start
Aircraft number 288, a J-31, was successfully sold to Air-France for the price of $5,899,999.
329 Beech <yr1jan4 SOLD 4,999,000 bought for 2,966,000 from cheater "Opps..."
Aircraft number 329, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Air Pak Express for the price of $4,999,000.
345 J-31 <yr2jan17 5yo bought for $3,300,000 from Midwest Airlines Co.
Aircraft number 345, a J-31, was successfully sold to Bushey Airlines for the price of $5,327,790
464 Beech <yr1sep SOLD 5,900,000 5yo bought for $5,400,000 from anniair
Aircraft number 464, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to SwissLink International for the price of $5,900,000.
675 J-31 <yr1jan13 SOLD 5,500,000 bought for 3,000,000 from ?????
Aircraft number 675, a J-31, was successfully sold to Soaring Eagle Air for the price of $5,500,000.
697 Beech <yr1jan14 SOLD 5,999,998 bought for 3,000,000 from cheater "gondwana"
Aircraft number 697, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Erfling Air for the price of $5,999,998.
771 Beech <yr1jan17 SOLD 5,999,999 bought for 2,965,867 from cheater "Hampson Air"
Aircraft number 771, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Aurora Air for the price of $5,999,999.
772 Beech <yr1jan17 SOLD 6,199,999 bought for 3,500,000 from cheater "Hampson Air"
Aircraft number 772, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Bluegrass Air for the price of $6,199,999.
816 Beech <yr1jan23 SOLD 5,899,999 bought for 2,965,867 from cheater flymatt
Aircraft number 816, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Air Hong Kong for the price of $5,899,999.
846 Beech <yr1jan18 SOLD 5,900,000 You bought a Beech 1900D from Portugalia for $4,600,000.
Aircraft number 846, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Airways International for the price of $5,900,000.
873 Beech <yr1jan19 SOLD 5,500,000 bought for 2,965,867 from cheater FlyDennis
Aircraft number 873, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to CondorFlight for the price of $5,500,000.
887 Beech <yr1jan21 SOLD 5,500,000 bought for 2,965,867 from cheater Star Lines
Aircraft number 887, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to CondorFlight for the price of $5,500,000.
1200 Beech <yr1mar12 SOLD 5,899,999 bought for $5,500,000 from ?????
Aircraft number 1200, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to BOC Air for the price of $5,899,999.
1501 Beech <yr1jan17 SOLD 5,931,734 bought for $3,000,000 from cheater airgerman
Aircraft number 1501, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Skylion for the price of $5,931,734.
1503 Beech <yr1mar SOLD 5,699,999 5yo bought for $2,965,867 from Air Barnsley
Aircraft number 1503, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Sunway Airlines for the price of $5,699,999.
1708 Beech <yr1apr15 SOLD 5,931,734 bought for $3,000,000 from cheater SANN AIR WAYS
Aircraft number 1708, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to TransJet for the price of $5,931,734.
1759 Beech <yr1apr24 SOLD 5,600,000 bought for $5,500,000 from ?????
Aircraft number 1759, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to TransJet for the price of $5,600,000.
1945 J-31 <yr1dec10 SOLD 5,827,790 bought for $3,000,000 from Jet Liners
Aircraft number 1945, a J-31, was successfully sold to Air France for the price of $5,827,790.
2158 Beech <yr1sep SOLD 5,931,734 5yo bought for $5,900,000 from anniair but was listed for 5,500,000
Aircraft number 2158, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Matrix Airline for the price of $5,931,734.
2572 Beech <yr1sep SOLD 5,999,999 5yo bought for $2,965,867 from Trashmetal Air
Aircraft number 2572, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Aircraft Leasing Limited for the price of $5,999,999.
2808 Beech <yr1sep15 5yo bought for $3,500,000 from Argentina Sky Airlines
Aircraft number 2808, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Colonial Airlines for the price of $5,999,999.
2809 Beech <yr1sep15 SOLD 5,999,999 5yo bought for $3,500,000 from Argentina Sky Airlines
Aircraft number 2809, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Vortex International for the price of $5,999,999.
2816 Beech <yr1sep SOLD 5,999,999 5yo bought for $5,400,000 from the royal @
Aircraft number 2816, a Beech 1900D, was successfully sold to Aircraft Leasing Limited for the price of $5,999,999.

for sale:
1095 Beech <yr1sep15 new bought for $7,500,000 from American Airlines
3346 Beech <yr1dec16 5yo bought for $3,000,000 from cheater Borat AIRLINE


Flying:
1041 Q400 yr1feb1 bought new for $19,203,500
1042 Q400 yr1feb1 bought new for $19,203,500
1854 Q400 yr1may01 bought new for $19,203,500
1855 Q400 yr1may01 bought new for $19,203,500
1897 Beech <yr1sep15 new bought for $5,500,000 from AlicantAIR
2263 Q400 yr1jul01 bought new for $19,010,500
2264 Q400 yr1jul01 bought new for $19,010,500
2265 Q400 yr1jul01 bought new for $19,010,500
2266 Q400 yr1jul01 bought new for $19,010,500
2960 Q400 yr1oct1 new bought for $18,914,000
2961 Q400 yr1oct1 new bought for $18,914,000
2962 Q400 yr1oct1 new bought for $18,914,000
2963 Q400 yr1oct1 new bought for $18,914,000
2964 Q400 yr1oct1 new bought for $18,914,000
3264 Q400 yr1nov1 new bought for $19,300,000
3505 Q400 yr2jan1 new bought for $19,010,500
3506 Q400 yr2jan1 new bought for $19,010,500
3507 Q400 yr2jan1 new bought for $19,010,500
3509 Q400 yr2jan1 new bought for $19,010,500

In the past most of these messages have proved to be half truths at best.

If you want to post correspondence from the staff, then quote it in full (I'm assuming you've gotten more than just those 2 sentences).

OK. I didn't feel this was appropriate but I take your words as an invitation to do it, so here it comes:

Administration Messages
2006-01-15
06:16:52
Message
Airline Empires Administration

2006-01-14 20:30:37 Anti-cheat software has been activated on your accountActions Taken: Queried

After reviewing your sales transactions, it has come to my attention that your transactions are not completely legit. You have made most all of your transactions on the public market, yet that does not mean you are not cheating. There are a number of airlines that you have purchased aircraft from that are known feeders and have already been shut down. Also, there are a number of airlines that you have purchased aircraft from that have only had one transaction, selling an aircraft at half price.

Please explain your actions as I have already reviewed the record of your transacations from the last round. It appears you were able to accomplish the same thing last round by making your transactions public instead of private. You were able to purchase aircraft from friends, alliance members or other airlines you owned by selling them at half price on the public market. [7458]

Please Respond to this message as soon as possible by clicking HERE Delete

response:

P
Response:
First of all: As far as I know, I do not know any of the players in AE other than via AE. I have no other airlines. I can't remember any transaction between me and other alliance members but if there were, it will have been 10% below value.

How do I buy those planes then, you ask. I try to visit the public market as often as I can. I have predetermined buying criteria, involving my current amount of cash, the relative value of the airplane (for instance no more than 80% of value) and the absolute value of the airplane (for instance no more than $5,000,000). If someone (anyone!) is willing to sell their 5yo beech for $4,000,000 then it's mine if it is listed at the top of the public market.

I see nothing wrong with this. If AE does not want aircraft to be sold at, say, 60% value, then AE will not have that option. It has, therefore it is allowed.

On the cheaters/feeders: I know there are airlines trying to move planes around below value to make a profit. I am in their way, not helping them.

One last remark: there's one transaction between me and player 8561 last round that may look very suspicious. I have explained my actions in the forum. I am not sure if that one is a cheater or not and have not included it on the list of possible cheaters I submitted to the mods.

In case this list got lost or was filtered, this is what I submitted:
-----
Suspicious activity. I am NOT saying all of these are
cheaters and/or feeders for sure. I have collected them
during last round and this one, they have been selling
planes at low value and/or are making huge amounts of
money in an unreasonably small amount of time.

According to travelhouse, you (and other moderators) know how this information gets to the right people.
I have collected these numbers in the previous round and in the current round. I have tried to give this list to miller (in november or so), but he either does not want to read my U2U or he does not read U2U at all.

Please note that I have bought a/c from many of these. I am *NOT* affiliated with them. I happened to stumble upon them on the public market.

I am NOT saying all of these are cheaters and/or feeders for sure. I have however cleaned my list a bit, trying to keep it clean from mistakes and possible newbieness.

Player ID
...

(I have left out the list of airline IDs).

Next message from AE:

Even after you were previously warned, your actions continue. I strongly suggest that you do not purchase any further aircraft from the used market or in private at half price. We have already checked on all of the airlines you have done business with. About half of them are known feeder airlines that were feeding other players. The rest have already been shut down as their actions are consistent of the actions of feeder airlines.

You will not be given any further warnings. The next action to be taken if you are caught again will be a heavy penalty against your airline, maybe even a complete reset. [7458]

Please Respond to this message as soon as possible by clicking HERE Delete

responses:

response 1:
I have received this message in duplicate. I will respond to the other one.

response 2:
In response to "you have been previously warned": I was queried for buying from "friends, alliance members, or other airlines I own". As I explained earlier, that is not the case.

You want me to stop buying on the public market if the price is 50%. Please indicate to me what an acceptable percentage is so I have a chance to alter my buying strategy into something you consider appropriate.

Next message from AE:

You are the only airline that has been able to purchase aircraft at or near 50% of value on a consistent basis. The sheer number of aircraft you have purchased at or near 50% of value is inconceivable. I spend just as much time or more on AE monitoring the aircraft sales. It cannot be coincidence that you are the only one to get them. Everyone else, except for a very few exceptions, has had to pay value or better. Not too mention what I have already said about the airlines you purchased all of those aircraft from.

Please Respond to this message as soon as possible by clicking HERE

response:

I buy an aircraft from the public market If I spot one and if it matches the requirements I have set in advance. If I buy it, someone else cannot. Ergo, if I am faster than the next guy, it's mine.
Indeed, that's not a coincidence but I fail to see the point you make: that it is cheating.

Also, I have asked what the minimum price to pay should be. I cannot follow your rules unless you announce them in advance.

Previous game rule: buying and selling between 50% and 200% of value. Obviously you (who are you by the way?) do not approve of 50%. I guess (and I cannot do any better than guessing at this point) you will also not approve of 51%. Where is the limit?

For the record: I feel you are treating me unfair. The first message was "please explain", the next message was "you have been warned before, this is the final warning". I am not in a position where (a) my first warning is the final warning and ( I do not know which rules I have to comply with

Next message from AE:

Airline Empires Administration

2006-01-20 12:58:40 Anti-cheat software has been activated on your accountActions Taken: Queried

You are the only airline that has been able to purchase aircraft at or near 50% of value on a consistent basis. The sheer number of aircraft you have purchased at or near 50% of value is inconceivable. I spend just as much time or more on AE monitoring the aircraft sales. It cannot be coincidence that you are the only one to get them. Everyone else, except for a very few exceptions, has had to pay value or better. Not too mention what I have already said about the airlines you purchased all of those aircraft from.

Please Respond to this message as soon as possible by clicking HERE

I remember having a war with Travelhouse, grabbing Eskimo Air's J-31s at ridiculously low prices last round. I do not know the circumstances but grabbing random 50% planes from the public should remain legal.

Oh you Elephant. Good Memory as I cant remember what happened last night.

Today a new response came in. Start: "Even after you were previously warned, your actions continue." Short description of the remainder of that message: last warning, must not buy at 50%, next action is huge penalty or even reset.

Please notice: the first warning is also the final warning. Also notice: "50%" is wrong. Not: "below 60%", "below 75%" or even "below 100%", only a statement about 50%. Who is willing to take their word upon it? Is there anyone thinking right now that 51% would be OK? What number is? Right now Airline Empires has become Russian Roulette.

Well, so in short, you are on Final Notice, No Fine, just told NO MORE BUYING

So. AE get rid of the 50% value, or why not REMOVE any selling Full Stop, and let AE mothball clause come be the buyer at 60% of value - That rids the cheaters 100% and then NO NEED for AE Coppers.

As I am disclosing much of my strategy anyway, I think this will be of intrest for some as well:

Well, so in short, you are on Final Notice, No Fine, just told NO MORE BUYING

That's not how I read it. The message tells me I should not buy at 50% anymore. The message fails to tell me what is allowed, hence the Russian Roulette statement I made.

So. AE get rid of the 50% value, or why not REMOVE any selling Full Stop, and let AE mothball clause come be the buyer at 60% of value - That rids the cheaters 100% and then NO NEED for AE Coppers.

Agreed. If buying aircraft at 50% is not allowed, it should not be in the game. To get rid of cheaters, selling at 200% should also be banned.

But of course buying and selling at 50% is not the problem. By closing down the public market, symptoms of the problem are cured, not the decease itself.

I remember a statement from Miller22: "This is not a witch hunt" (or words very similar). I hope miller is aware that this is exactly what the cheat committee has become: a witch hunt. People are cheaters because the cheat committee says so. Prove used is that the cheat committee does not understand how else something would happen. No questions asked, just convicted of a crime I did not commit.

I think the following quote is saying it all:

I spend just as much time or more on AE monitoring the aircraft sales. It cannot be coincidence that you are the only one to get them.

Read: I compete with the cheat committee and beat them. That is impossible thus I cheat.

In the past most of these messages have proved to be half truths at best.

If you want to post correspondence from the staff, then quote it in full (I'm assuming you've gotten more than just those 2 sentences).

I am very curious if, after reading the full conversation, you consider my earlier postings to be a correct representation of the truth.

That's not how I read it. The message tells me I should not buy at 50% anymore. The message fails to tell me what is allowed, hence the Russian Roulette statement I made.

Agreed. If buying aircraft at 50% is not allowed, it should not be in the game. To get rid of cheaters, selling at 200% should also be banned.

But of course buying and selling at 50% is not the problem. By closing down the public market, symptoms of the problem are cured, not the decease itself.

I remember a statement from Miller22: "This is not a witch hunt" (or words very similar). I hope miller is aware that this is exactly what the cheat committee has become: a witch hunt. People are cheaters because the cheat committee says so. Prove used is that the cheat committee does not understand how else something would happen. No questions asked, just convicted of a crime I did not commit.

I think the following quote is saying it all:
Read: I compete with the cheat committee and beat them. That is impossible thus I cheat.

OK, well Mr Highspeed, you will be happy or sad to know this then, and I will make this a public statement too.

At 1st, you and I didnt see eye to eye, but, on this (Copper / Police) thing we are 100% in same views.

Witch Hunt (Yes) Russian Roulette (Yes) Guilty till proven Innocent (Yes) and so on. Highspeed, your not alone, many others will also fall to the LONG ARM of AE Laws.

Miller and TorqueWrench MUST take this matter into hand and there is a simple solution (Remove The Used Aircraft Market - Remove inter-game Aircraft Sales and make the Mothball name to Selling Aircraft and give a % off the actual value)

Dear anti cheat committee,

Message Sent

SQL/DB Error --

SQL/DB Error --

Reply successfully sent.

In case that last line isn't as accurate as it should, this is what I responded:

There is no way for me to prove that I am telling the truth. You will have to take my word for it. I have complied in full with the requirements: I do not cheat, I have responded to your messages and explained what happened, yet you keep saying I am a cheater. Perhaps you should have somebody else have a look at it.

Where did you get those stats?

Where did you get those stats?

Just a small home grown application, nothing fancy. There's no magic in it, it's nothing more than plotting value against time.

On the public market until 20:30:30 GMT: frame 3590, A J-31 from goldenhawk being sold for 1,663,895 (50%). Who's the dare devil buying it? It was on line for at least three minutes.

Goldenhawk, id 9837, seems to be a feeder/cheater.
Goldenhawk Air Service, id 9865, may be affiliated.