50 replies to this topic

[Maestro69]

Just one small question:

Is there any reason in particular why Southwest doesnt operate from DFW instead of Dallas Love???

I know Dallas Love is their home base and that they cater to a different niche to AA at DFW, but honestly, DFW should have room for AA and Southwest. This whole scenario is absolute crap, if they wanted DFW to succeed in its own right at the time, the simple solution was to demolish Dallas Love back in the 70's. Thats it, they didnt need no federal legislation to tell an airline what to do nor to protect a frikking airport. It seems more like trying to save some asses due to DFW performance in the 70's than anything else.

Had that happen, maybe AA presence at DFW could have been challenged and created cheaper flights from DFW to the rest of the US.

Oh well, guess we will find out soon what is going to happen. Hopefully this issue doesnt take 2-3 years to resolve. Its more like damned if u dont, damned if u do.

[Hen]

What a heated topic!

Apparently they were going to demolish Dallas Love, but the founder of SWA was able to overturn the decision, which led to the regulation which limits what flights are allowed to be flown from Love Field.

Love Field is also closer to Dallas, while DFW is further out in order to serve both city: Dallas and Fort Worth.

[hpscot08]

Scapel, I have to congratulate you on your copy and pasting skills, you just copied and pasted that from setlovefree.com. The funniest part is that you didn't even bother to notice that it is Southwest Airlines talking, bright one, the airticle may be a little biased when there are lines like "We schedule our flights", "We were proud to participate in the drafting of the Love Field Master Plan", and "We now buy".

He are some real statistics/ facts you can't argue with:

DFW is one of the world's premier airports served by many of the world's airlines. As competition from Love Field brings fares down, more passengers will use DFW.

Does anyone see how this makes sense?

Southwest traditionally avoids fortress hubs like DFW, preferring smaller, less congested airports when available.

and

By leasing the 10 to 22 gates that the package requires, an airline would need to operate around 80 flights a day.

Poor Southwest, 80 flights a day at such a large airport, maybe they should mention that they have 143 flights at LAX. Non-stop. So don't think I included the more than 300 non-stop flights. These facts are taken directly form the Southwest flight schedule, I counted, so don't even try.

If allowed access to longhaul markets from Love, consumers would benefit from DFW's airlines having to compete with the fares offered by Southwest at Love.

Many experts believe that reductions in fares would be minimal.

Finally for others to see, you could at least have the decency to post where you got your information from so that it can be shown exactly how much of your information is biased.

[hpscot08]

Also:

Hobby and Bush Intercontinental complement and support each other. Houston has both global reach and competitive airfares.

Did you fail to mention that they are run by the same airport authority in Houston?

[Scalpel4]

Originally posted by Maestro69
Just one small question:

Is there any reason in particular why Southwest doesnt operate from DFW instead of Dallas Love???

I know Dallas Love is their home base and that they cater to a different niche to AA at DFW, but honestly, DFW should have room for AA and Southwest. This whole scenario is absolute crap, if they wanted DFW to succeed in its own right at the time, the simple solution was to demolish Dallas Love back in the 70's. Thats it, they didnt need no federal legislation to tell an airline what to do nor to protect a frikking airport. It seems more like trying to save some asses due to DFW performance in the 70's than anything else.

Had that happen, maybe AA presence at DFW could have been challenged and created cheaper flights from DFW to the rest of the US.

Oh well, guess we will find out soon what is going to happen. Hopefully this issue doesnt take 2-3 years to resolve. Its more like damned if u dont, damned if u do.

Because the gate costs at DFW are much more than at love. Also, AA does own gates at love, though they own may more at DFW.

[Dukeflight]

Well... I think just by reading this I made my point.
Just to clarify I said in other thread (actually on the "suggestions" forum) that you can't separate politics from economics if you are running an airline business simulator.
I didn't even read the whole thread becase there are many things that I just don't understand for not being American, but it doesn't surprise me if you are having problems with airlines and politics, I think it is a part of the ecuation and happens everywhere.
For example, here in Argentina everything concerning commercial aviation is regulated, if you want to make an airline... the government will "suggest" you witch routes to fly and how often, but Argentina is an extreme case.
Anyways... I hope all turns right.

PS: http://www.airlineem...tid=3165&page=1

[Scalpel4]

Originally posted by hpscot08
Scapel, I have to congratulate you on your copy and pasting skills,

Just as I have to congratulate you! You're quite good at copying straight from AA sources.

Originally posted by hpscot08
Does anyone see how this makes sense?

It actually makes perfect sense if you read. The FAA calls it the Southwest effect. They drive prices down, more people fly, and traffic increases on both fronts. Hmmmm, logic prevails again!

Originally posted by hpscot08
they should mention that they have 143 flights at LAX. Non-stop. So don't think I included the more than 300 non-stop flights. These facts are taken directly form the Southwest flight schedule, I counted, so don't even try.

Well DUH!!! It's LAX! We're talking about a small national airport with FAR less capacity, not a major international airport. Compare apples to apples, not kiwi's to watermelons and your argument will hold water! DAL is 32 gates, the same size as Edmonton YEG, and southwest only has 14 of them. The rest are taken up by other airlines. This is fact. DFW had 121 gates BEFORE the international terminal, of which AA uses two terminals worth of gates. Compare this to HKG (Hong Kong International) and it's 75 gates. Look THAT up on AZWorldAirports.com for proof.

Originally posted by hpscot08
Many experts believe that reductions in fares would be minimal.

Of course it would, silly. If I could fly from Dallas to Philadelphia direct on someone other than AA, that would mean competition, which means fare wars. This is simple economics, competition reduces prices.

Originally posted by hpscot08
Finally for others to see, you could at least have the decency to post where you got your information from so that it can be shown exactly how much of your information is biased.

I did a few times, just as you did. You get your information from AA's website keepdfwstrong.com, I've been using setlovefree.com and congress.org, but I've also used fightwright.org, dallasnews.com, dallas-lovefield.com and nbc5i.com.


Now that I'm done trouncing yet another diversion of yours, let's talk about the issue instead of dancing around it. If DAL can have national routes again, how will the DFW metroplex be hurt? Give me one irrefutable, proveable statement that will tell everyone here why opening DAL, a small airport only 25% the size of DFW will hurt the region. So far, you haven't been able to do this.

[Scalpel4]

Originally posted by hpscot08
Also:

Hobby and Bush Intercontinental complement and support each other. Houston has both global reach and competitive airfares.

Did you fail to mention that they are run by the same airport authority in Houston?

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything in the argument. That's like saying George Bush invaded Iraq, and he was wearing his red boxers that day. It has nothing to do with the other.

Oh, and By the way, Houston is a smaller city than than Dallas/Fort Worth, and they have two airports that run unrestricted successfully. There's nothing special about Dallas/Fort Worth that says we cannot do it as well.

[Scalpel4]

Originally posted by hpscot08
Hmmm... Protect airlines at airports, Southwest has done this at Love Field, Southwest arguing to keep Texas Inernational out:
?The Love Field Legislation was intended to settle once and for all the ?dispute that has raged in the Dallas/Fort Worth area for many years. Now, TI [Texas International] seeks to reopen that fight and upset the delicate balance which has brought peace for the first time in over a decade. Congressional intent to the contrary is clear. Southwest does not object to TI using Love for intrastate flights (which apparently is all it wants to do) so long as the law is obeyed and TI?s certificate properly reflects what it may and may not do. There is simply no reason for the [Civil Aeronautics] Board to raise again the spectre of full scale commercial use of Love Field which has exacerbated this situation for so long, and which Congress has been to such pains to exorcise.?

--Response of Southwest Airlines Co. to Reply of Texas International Airlines, Inc. in Civil Aeronautics Board?s Review of Texas International Airlines, Inc. proposed service at Love Field, filed August 23, 1980, by Paul Y. Seligson, Attorney for Southwest Airlines Co, at p. 3. (http://www.keepdfwst.../southwest.html)

AND AA has done the exact same thing, on a much greater scale, using 4 times as many gates as Southwest. By your logic, AA is more guilty than Southwest. Would you like me to list the number of airlines AA has put out of business in both DFW and DAL? Would you like me to direct you to some of the legal issues involved with AA's current anti-trust suits?

[hpscot08]

Alright, here we go again:

I did a few times, just as you did. You get your information from AA's website keepdfwstrong.com, I've been using setlovefree.com and congress.org, but I've also used fightwright.org, dallasnews.com, dallas-lovefield.com and nbc5i.com.

hmmm... fightwright.org, no way they are biased / dallasnews.com, what did you get form there? / dallas-lovefield.com, do you think the airport might be the slightest bit biased, duh! / nbc5i.com, what did you get from here?

Well DUH!!! It's LAX! We're talking about a small national airport with FAR less capacity, not a major international airport.

Is anyone here able to believe what this guy just said. I mean am I crazy or isn't LAX an airport with more pax, oh wait, it does have mroe pax:
Los Angeles (LAX) - 60,710,830
Dallas/Ft. Worth (DFW) - 59,412,217
Whta are you smoking to say the number 3 U.S. airport is a small national airport .

Me: Many experts believe that reductions in fares would be minimal.
You: Of course it would, silly. If I could fly from Dallas to Philadelphia direct on someone other than AA, that would mean competition, which means fare wars. This is simple economics, competition reduces prices.

Thank you for contradicting yourself, I don't even need to argue because you agreed with me.

Me: Did you fail to mention that they are run by the same airport authority in Houston?
You: That has absolutely nothing to do with anything in the argument.

Hmmm..., I think the real reason you are avoiding this topic is because those airports are run jointly, by the same group, meaning that they can control the gate distribution and so forth. This would not happen in Dallas, the airports would not be run by the same group. This is why the airports in Houston can co-exist, they are run by the Houston Airport system, nothing like this exists in Dallas. Check out their website at: http://www.houstonairportsystem.org/

By your logic, AA is more guilty than Southwest.

There are no "levels of guiltyness", they are either guilty or they aren't so don't try to make AA look worse, SWA would have done it more if they had needed too as well.

[sok]

i think Scalpel meant DAL was a small airport not DFW... no one would be so dumb to say DFW is small.

[Edited on 8/13/2005 by sok]

[piercey]

[hpscot08]

i think Scalpel meant DAL was a small airport not DFW... no one would be so dumb to say DFW is small.

He was referring to LAX, which I must sya is pretty stupid. I agree.

[Scalpel4]

Good LORD I feel like I'm trying to teach a howler monkey basic math. You show him 2+2=4, yet all he can do is sit there and yell "O-O-O-O-O-O"!

He was referring to LAX, which I must sya is pretty stupid. I agree.

You opened the insult door with the "Stupid" comment to something you did not understand, therefore I'm shoving you through it now. DAL is the small airport, LAX is the HUGE airport, IE the kiwi to watermelon comparison, meaning your entire argument, actually I should cal it a diversion, on this point is just plain retarded. That's really the only word for it.

hmmm... fightwright.org, no way they are biased / dallasnews.com, what did you get form there? / dallas-lovefield.com, do you think the airport might be the slightest bit biased, duh! / nbc5i.com, what did you get from here?

Yes, Fightwright.org is biased, almost as much as keepdfwstrong.com, but fightwright actually has facts where your AA sponsored site has nothing but propoganda and BS. My other sources, as I've said before, NBC5I is the site for NBC 5 news, which discussed who was sponsoring the bill, and congress.org who showed you the actual bill. Dallasnews.com is the site for the Dallas Morning News, which reported the campaigh donations AA was making. FYI, it was also reported on WB 33 news. I thought you said you were from Dallas? Wouldn't someone actually from Dallas know this basic information? Dallas-lovefield.com is the airport site which contains the master plan for the airport. This is what was used to get the restrictions not related to Wright, not any news or opinions they may have. I thought you said you were "in the know" with your first post? Someone "in the know" would know what's in the DAL Master Plan.

OH! I get it! You're really NOT in the know! Judging by the structure of your arguments you're probably some high school poser that keeps missing his debate team meetings by spending time underneath the bleachers during cheerleader practice flogging his dolphin. That's the most logical explanation there is as to why your arguments are so unfocused and random! Anyways, I'll humor you. Have a seat son, the professor is about to continue.

Is anyone here able to believe what this guy just said. I mean am I crazy or isn't LAX an airport with more pax, oh wait, it does have mroe pax:
Los Angeles (LAX) - 60,710,830
Dallas/Ft. Worth (DFW) - 59,412,217
Whta are you smoking to say the number 3 U.S. airport is a small national airport .

STOP SLEEPING ON YOUR DESK OR I'LL HIT YOU WITH AN ERASER! I was comparing DFW to DAL as a response to YOU comparing DAL to LAX with your "Southwest has 143 flights at LAX. See what happens when you sleep during class?

Me: Many experts believe that reductions in fares would be minimal.
You: Of course it would, silly. If I could fly from Dallas to Philadelphia direct on someone other than AA, that would mean competition, which means fare wars. This is simple economics, competition reduces prices.

Thank you for contradicting yourself, I don't even need to argue because you agreed with me.

OK, got me on that one, I mistyped out of frustration with your ADD. Fares WILL drop dramatically on destination cities SWA and AA both flew to from Dallas. Didn't they teach you anything in economics about competition and it's effects? I guess you were under the bleachers during that period as well. OH THE SHAME!!! Don't buy it? The let's check the fares!


NOW let's compare that to Austin, which is a long afternoons drive from Dallas, where AA and SWA go head to head. FYI, Dallas to Austin is 196 mi (about 4 hours 9 mins) according to Google Maps. Look it up hpscot08!



Notice a difference? Still don't buy it? Read on, and you'll see why they're so high here in Dallas in the first place.

Hmmm..., I think the real reason you are avoiding this topic is because those airports are run jointly, by the same group, meaning that they can control the gate distribution and so forth. This would not happen in Dallas, the airports would not be run by the same group. This is why the airports in Houston can co-exist, they are run by the Houston Airport system, nothing like this exists in Dallas. Check out their website at: http://www.houstonairportsystem.org/

Hey, you went to one of your debate meetings! BRAVO for quoting a second source for information! Although you were WAY off target for your argument, I'll give you a few points for attempting to fire back.

Let's see. Two companies operating two airports, one is 25% the size of the other, charges less and flights are currently maxed out, the other one is HUGE, with 4 times the gates and far more PAX, and higher gate costs because they fly internationally not just nationally. Maybe allowing both airports to fly to the same place would create a small amount of competition between the two, causing gate costs that service national routes to drop . . . but wait a minute, DAL is completely under contract by several airlines, except for 6 gates built by Legend airlines (an airline AA sued out of business) and those gated are to be demolished for parking! (Found THAT on Dallas-Lovefield.com, and Laura Miller spoke about it this week) If there was space available at DAL, wouldn't that drive down gast prices at DFW, thereby saving AA money potentially, thereby bringing in more airlines to DFW since they're cheaper, increasing competition for AA? Hmmmmm..... Competition between two companies, doesn't that mean one will try to outprice the other? (How is this bad if costs for the airlines go down?) Hmmmmm.... Or perhaps DAL's management will raise rates now that they are free costing SWA more money? Possible. Hmmmm.... or why would AA be against this, even though the monopolize DFW using predatory pricing practices against smaller airlines who have TRIED to fly from DFW? But since DAL is at it's limit with the number of flights allowed, this is all not related to the topic because NO MORE ADDITIONAL SWA FLIGHT, REGARDLESS OF WRIGHT, CAN BE MADE FROM DAL THAT THERE ARE NOW! SWA will have to cancel other flights to activate long haul routes as it is. THEY'VE REACHED THEIR LIMIT!!! Becasue of this, rates are very unlikely to change!

But then again, you already knew that right? I mean you are in the know after all? Hmmmmmmm..... It's amazing the conversations you must hear underneath those bleachers.

There are no "levels of guiltyness", they are either guilty or they aren't so don't try to make AA look worse, SWA would have done it more if they had needed too as well.

Well Thank you OJ for your dramatic legal insight. You mean two powerful airlines are going to use politics to try and get their way? WOW! Who would've thought! I guess nobody knew that up until now considering AA is so friendly and impartial, especially when there's potential competition. Wait a minute, what's this?

United States of America vs. AMR CORPORATION, AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC., and AMR EAGLE HOLDING CORPORATION, Civil Action No.: 99-1180-JTM; The United States of America, plaintiff, by its attorneys, acting under the direction of the Attorney General of the United States, brings this antitrust action to enjoin AMR Corporation and its two airline subsidiaries, American Airlines, Inc. and AMR Eagle Holding Corporation (together, "American"), from monopolizing and attempting to monopolize airline passenger service to and from Dallas/Ft. Worth International Airport ("DFW") in violation of Section 2 of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. ? 2.
Here's the source - http://www.usdoj.gov.../f2400/2438.htm


Has SWA ever been sued for violation of antitrust suits? Hmmmm, my magic 8 ball say NO. I can't find any instance of that ever happening. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm willing to admit it if I am, but I think they haven't! Looks like AA does a great job of making itself look bad without help from SWA, or even from little old me. Yes they dismissed this thanks to AA's legal supergroup getting them IMMUNITY from antitrust law with some help from a friendly presidential administration and a slew of senators with their hands out, but what happened as a result? PRICES WENT UP SIGNIFICANTLY!
http://writ.news.fin...0906_edlin.html

Can you HONESTLY say allowing another airline to fly nationally without the strong likelihood of interference from AA and their friends on the DFW airport board will not bring prices down significantly? C'mon tell me, I mean you ARE in the know, right? What did your friends under the bleachers say?

Through all your smoke and mirrors, and distractions from the real question at hand, you still have yet to provide ANY form of good response to the real issue. Therefore, I am forced to ask you a SECOND time. Answer it if you can without the smoke and mirrors.

If DAL can have national routes again, how will the DFW metroplex be hurt? Give me one irrefutable, proveable statement that will tell everyone here why opening DAL, a small airport only 25% the size of DFW will hurt the region.

[Edited on 8/13/2005 by Scalpel4]

[WSHNationals]

also, another thing, SW doesn't fly Int'l and won't fly it from DAL. AA still has a monopoly on Int'l flights from DFW. Also, SW doesn't fly to all the airports in the U.S. Correct if wrong, but AA serves more cities from DFW than SW serves period. Also, DFW will not be hurt, as if SW can fly national flights from DAL, then AA will INCREASE its operation at DFW, giving it more expenses for gates. Also, when AA eventually puts fares equal to SW, as is indefinate if Love is set free, then AA will have to offer a better product then SW, and they will be equal. Also, AA has a lot of loyalty in the DFW area, so they will still keep PAX numbers high. People will see the SW effect as has happened when SW flew to BWI, taking away PAX from DCA and IAD. However, IAD has still stayed big, and DCA's fall has nothing to do with SW and everything to with 9/11:( Thats all i have to say.

[hpscot08]

Alright, another day of "meeting with my debate team under the benches", but first just wondering, I am willing to bet I live closer to Love Field than you. Even if oyu claim to live in Dallas (I live in Highland Park).

You opened the insult door with the "Stupid" comment to something you did not understand, therefore I'm shoving you through it now. DAL is the small airport, LAX is the HUGE airport...
and
I was comparing DFW to DAL as a response to YOU comparing DAL to LAX with your "Southwest has 143 flights at LAX.

Bright one, I wasn't saying that LAX was the same as Love Field, I was saying it was similar to DFW. They fly out of LAX(distances in parenthasis form LAX), BUR(28.2 miles), ONT(57.5 miles), and SNA(41.2 miles), so why can't they fly out of DFW and DAL(about 20)? The teacher shouldn't be hung over when they come to class (jk )

Yes, Fightwright.org is biased, almost as much as keepdfwstrong.com, but fightwright actually has facts where your AA sponsored site has nothing but propoganda and BS.

What facts were you refering to other those those about SWA and their fleet, etc.? Thats all the facts I could find.

Fares WILL drop dramatically on destination cities SWA and AA both flew to from Dallas. Didn't they teach you anything in economics about competition and it's effects? I guess you were under the bleachers during that period as well. OH THE SHAME!!! Don't buy it? The let's check the fares!
and
SWA will have to cancel other flights to activate long haul routes as it is. THEY'VE REACHED THEIR LIMIT!!! Becasue of this, rates are very unlikely to change!

I don't get why you keep contradicting yourself, but anyways, wouldn't the prices on shoter routes around the state rise as these prices on national routes fall? So wouldn't they have to cut flights many people take evry day to smaller towns in Texas like LBB, ELP, and AMA? This according to your correct theory of competition and prices would mean these prices would go up, would it not?

WOW! Who would've thought! I guess nobody knew that up until now considering AA is so friendly and impartial, especially when there's potential competition.

What is you rproblem with AA about, you have some type of grudge I see. Your poor little Southwest could never tell a lie, even on their fightwright.com website. I actually have only form on American once in my life, and have a certain grudge against them which we will not go into.

If DAL can have national routes again, how will the DFW metroplex be hurt? Give me one irrefutable, proveable statement that will tell everyone here why opening DAL, a small airport only 25% the size of DFW will hurt the region.

One negative, prices in Texas will go up, and Southwest's main reason fo rstaying at Love Field is their "tradition", right? But apparently they ould rather lose flight around Texas and have more national flights, dramatically reducing their flights to everywhere in Texas. Southwest only has 141 flights form DAL, many of which do not operate every day, menaing they have around 100 flights per day. So, how do they plan to honor their other tradition of low-cost service across Texas? Wouldn't this hurt the metropplex, when it costs $200 to fly to Amarillo?

Also, DFW will not be hurt, as if SW can fly national flights from DAL, then AA will INCREASE its operation at DFW, giving it more expenses for gates.

Why would American try to compete form DFW when it could compete form Love Field for less?

In the future you could at least use charts that are able to be seen, without copyright infringement or being blocked.

Let's see. Two companies operating two airports, one is 25% the size of the other, charges less and flights are currently maxed out, the other one is HUGE, with 4 times the gates and far more PAX, and higher gate costs because they fly internationally not just nationally. Maybe allowing both airports to fly to the same place would create a small amount of competition between the two, causing gate costs that service national routes to drop . . . but wait a minute, DAL is completely under contract by several airlines, except for 6 gates built by Legend airlines

Since you are so "informed" on the issue you should already know that Delta used those gates, not only Legend .

Lastly, before your next reply, I ask you to think about the people that live close to Love Field, don't you think they should have a say in this, instead of people thousands of miles away. It's not like this will destroy their home values or anything. Also, I don't care what SWA says about their "quieter" 737's a plane with jet engines will make lots of noise!

Your comment: Well DUH!!! It's LAX!

Couldn't you just substitute LAX with DFW? They are the same size!

[Edited on 8/13/2005 by hpscot08]

[Mexicana757]

All I have to say is


SET DAL/WN FREEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rocksandfossils]

this is getting as interesting as the brunswick/ithboy argument

[Edited on 8/13/2005 by rocksandfossils]

[Scalpel4]

Boy you're quite good at redirection, avoiding the issue, attempting to cover up the problem through distraction and miniscule arguments that have NOTHING to do with the argument at hand. I'm not going to humor your distractions anymore, I'm just going to as you a THIRD time, the question you refuse to answer. I won't stop asking it, and it won't go away.

If DAL can have national routes again, how will the DFW metroplex be hurt? Give me one irrefutable, proveable statement that will tell everyone here why opening DAL, a small airport only 25% the size of DFW will hurt the region.