18 replies to this topic

[Avelo]

For a long time, Lufthansa has played the role of king in the German aviation market, always maintaining the lion's share at Frankfurt and Munich and chasing competitors out, much to the dismay of other players. And now that Air Berlin is dead, they've looked to become even more dominant than ever before.

Yet little do some people know that Austrian, Brussels Airlines, Eurowings, Germanwings, and SWISS are all owned by Lufthansa too, creating nothing more than an illusion of choice. So don't be fooled if you have this false perception of flying a different airline if you fly with any of them...

And let's not forget the high potential for service disruptions due to employee strikes. If a strike cancels your flight and you have no other choice but Lufthansa, now what?

And all that brings me to this question: Can Germany support a second legacy airline to take on Lufthansa? All answers welcome

[ЗЫРХ]

For a long time, Lufthansa has played the role of king in the German aviation market, always maintaining the lion's share at Frankfurt and Munich and chasing competitors out, much to the dismay of other players. And now that Air Berlin is dead, they've looked to become even more dominant than ever before.

Yet little do some people know that Austrian, Brussels Airlines, Eurowings, Germanwings, and SWISS are all owned by Lufthansa too, creating nothing more than an illusion of choice. So don't be fooled if you have this false perception of flying a different airline if you fly with any of them...

And let's not forget the high potential for service disruptions due to employee strikes. If a strike cancels your flight and you have no other choice but Lufthansa, now what?

And all that brings me to this question: Can Germany support a second legacy airline to take on Lufthansa? All answers welcome

airberlin saw some decent success up until their demise last year.

[TNT88]

Maybe a semi-Full service carrier. You know, the only way to take on the German market is to go cheaper. This would undercut Lufthansa's economy class load factor by providing cheaper air fares for economy class passengers.

 

10-20% cheaper Y class ticket prices and it would be quite successful. 29" seat pitch on narrow-body aircraft, 30"-31" on wide-body aircraft.

 

 

But I don't think there is enough place for 2 Full Service Airlines. The market just isn't big enough. Especially with competition from the big ME3 and other European competitions. 

[Avelo]

Maybe a semi-Full service carrier. You know, the only way to take on the German market is to go cheaper. This would undercut Lufthansa's economy class load factor by providing cheaper air fares for economy class passengers.

 

10-20% cheaper Y class ticket prices and it would be quite successful. 29" seat pitch on narrow-body aircraft, 30"-31" on wide-body aircraft.

 

 

But I don't think there is enough place for 2 Full Service Airlines. The market just isn't big enough. Especially with competition from the big ME3 and other European competitions. 

If my German legacy airline already existed in real life, how would you picture the country's aviation market today? (http://www.airline-e...1824-interluft/)

[TNT88]

^With that many type of aircraft or the type of aircraft your airlines operate. You airlines would goes bankrupt within 12 months of operations.

 

A330-200, A340-600, A380 (too sparse, you didn't utilized it properly) should be out of the window. A330-300 and A350-900 are the 2 most profitable and fuel efficient aircraft today.

B737-700 and B737-800 while operating A320's family is a bad thing unless you operate hundreds of them. I personally think A320 and A321 combinations for narrow-body.

E190 and CRJ900 at the same time? really? Pick one or none.

 

 

I don't know about your airlines services, but looking at the number of aircraft on your airlines, it seems like it's run by a bad management. 

 

Also, if your airlines exist in real life, Air Berlin wouldn't be as successful as they are until they go bankrupt. 

[Avelo]

^With that many type of aircraft or the type of aircraft your airlines operate. You airlines would goes bankrupt within 12 months of operations.

 

A330-200, A340-600, A380 (too sparse, you didn't utilized it properly) should be out of the window. A330-300 and A350-900 are the 2 most profitable and fuel efficient aircraft today.

B737-700 and B737-800 while operating A320's family is a bad thing unless you operate hundreds of them. I personally think A320 and A321 combinations for narrow-body.

E190 and CRJ900 at the same time? really? Pick one or none.

 

 

I don't know about your airlines services, but looking at the number of aircraft on your airlines, it seems like it's run by a bad management. 

 

Also, if your airlines exist in real life, Air Berlin wouldn't be as successful as they are until they go bankrupt. 

What's your perspective on these route maps: 

 

https://www.google.c...82050000067&z=3

 

https://www.google.c...52650000047&z=5

 

In case you didn't read the captions in the Interluft gallery, if it existed in real life it would originally be a Pan Am subsidiary, as they flew domestic German routes after WWII.

[Pasti]

Impossible.

Lufthansa has had a hold on the German aviation market for so long. And with the previously mentioned gap left by airberlin, I’m sure they've already filled it up a decent amount. Any new upstarts would need to find a market that Lufthansa hasn’t gone into, and that wouldn’t be feasable since they already have domestic, European, and long-haul cornered.

Looking at the route maps you’ve made as well, I’m sure Lufthansa or one of its other airlines already serve most of your destinations.

[Avelo]

Impossible.

Lufthansa has had a hold on the German aviation market for so long. And with the previously mentioned gap left by airberlin, I’m sure they've already filled it up a decent amount. Any new upstarts would need to find a market that Lufthansa hasn’t gone into, and that wouldn’t be feasable since they already have domestic, European, and long-haul cornered.

Looking at the route maps you’ve made as well, I’m sure Lufthansa or one of its other airlines already serve most of your destinations.

True, but several of LH's routes have only one or two competing airlines out of either FRA or MUC. As Interluft's story goes, it would start operations before LH and initially focus on domestic routes (being born as a Pan Am subsidiary flying between FRA and West Berlin). Once it became a German company they would give up their Berlin traffic rights to Pan Am. LH would start a few years later, focusing on European and transatlantic routes, and then Interluft would expand eastward into markets (imaginarily) not yet served by LH, such as Africa, Asia, Australia, and the Middle East. Once liberalization happens in the 80s, they become primary competitors. How does that story sound?

[Pasti]

How does that story sound?

 

Well, whatever you think of it; our opinions don't matter as much as yours  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

Either way, LH would take dominance over some routes and your airline'd control others, so I'd figure both route maps would be smaller than what they could be if this was a happy world and everyone learned to share.

[Avelo]

Well, whatever you think of it; our opinions don't matter as much as yours ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Either way, LH would take dominance over some routes and your airline'd control others, so I'd figure both route maps would be smaller than what they could be if this was a happy world and everyone learned to share.

That would make sense

[TNT88]

What's your perspective on these route maps: 

 

https://www.google.c...82050000067&z=3

 

https://www.google.c...52650000047&z=5

 

In case you didn't read the captions in the Interluft gallery, if it existed in real life it would originally be a Pan Am subsidiary, as they flew domestic German routes after WWII.

 

The fact that there's lack of destinations across the North America tells me the management is really really bad. You gonna ended up like Alitalia.

No San Francisco, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, San Diego, Las Vegas, Denver, Houston, Austin, Mexico City, Orlando, Newark, Minneapolis, Boston, Detroit, Philadelphia, Baltimore. Girl, in real life you gonna get crushed by Lufthansa so hard.

 

Also, your airlines would probably ended up like air berlin if you didn't sort out the destinations and the aircraft family problems.

[Avelo]

 

The fact that there's lack of destinations across the North America tells me the management is really really bad. You gonna ended up like Alitalia.

No San Francisco, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, San Diego, Las Vegas, Denver, Houston, Austin, Mexico City, Orlando, Newark, Minneapolis, Boston, Detroit, Philadelphia, Baltimore. Girl, in real life you gonna get crushed by Lufthansa so hard.

 

Also, your airlines would probably ended up like air berlin if you didn't sort out the destinations and the aircraft family problems.

 

Because Interluft would historically be dominant in Africa and Asia according to its story. North America would be Lufthansa's dominant market in that sense. In case you didn't know, this is what I quoted from my previous post:

 

"As Interluft's story goes, it would start operations before LH and initially focus on domestic routes (being born as a Pan Am subsidiary flying between FRA and West Berlin). Once it became a German company they would give up their Berlin traffic rights to Pan Am. LH would start a few years later, focusing on European and transatlantic routes, and then Interluft would expand eastward into markets (imaginarily) not yet served by LH, such as Africa, Asia, Australia, and the Middle East."

[TNT88]

Because Interluft would historically be dominant in Africa and Asia according to its story. North America would be Lufthansa's dominant market in that sense. In case you didn't know, this is what I quoted from my previous post:

 

"As Interluft's story goes, it would start operations before LH and initially focus on domestic routes (being born as a Pan Am subsidiary flying between FRA and West Berlin). Once it became a German company they would give up their Berlin traffic rights to Pan Am. LH would start a few years later, focusing on European and transatlantic routes, and then Interluft would expand eastward into markets (imaginarily) not yet served by LH, such as Africa, Asia, Australia, and the Middle East."

 

That's why Lufthansa is number 1 then. Bad management I said.

[Avelo]

That's why Lufthansa is number 1 then. Bad management I said.

Perhaps Interluft should remain as an AE-only brand if that's what you're saying.

[TNT88]

Perhaps Interluft should remain as an AE-only brand if that's what you're saying.

Yep. Otherwise it's gonna turn into Air Berlin 2.0

[Avelo]

Yep. Otherwise it's gonna turn into Air Berlin 2.0

And I never intended to market Interluft as a knock-off of Air Berlin because I'm looking to establish it as a business airline, not a leisure airline.

[TNT88]

And I never intended to market Interluft as a knock-off of Air Berlin because I'm looking to establish it as a business airline, not a leisure airline.

No, my point is that you would just ended up like Air Berlin. In real life now, your airline would already going bankrupt. 

[Bradimir]

It's not a question of 'If they can'.... It's a question of 'will Lufthansa ever let that happen?"

[AirfoxINT]

Maybe Germania or another originally charter carrier will start to step up their game.