24 replies to this topic

[Hello123]

How many hours of utilisation per day do real airlines use?

[SUJETO]

Depends of the airline size, airport of operation and aircraft.

 

10h to 24h

[Hello123]

Thanks

[Pacific]

In AE terms, a max of around 110-120 hours average because it includes turn time.

[zortan]

Depends of the airline size, airport of operation and aircraft.

 

10h to 24h

I'd say that's incorrect.

 

MIT published a study saying most airlines don't use nearly that much. The max for ANY airline EVER is really only 15 a day. That's good for wide body at max, you should use probably closer to 13 though. For narrow body, usually 10-11, and for regional, 9-10 is realistic.

[SUJETO]

i insist

[Pacific]

Said MIT study excludes turn times, thus my mention of turn times in my previous post.

 

Weirdly enough, it was an all-narrowbody airline (Jetblue) that topped the list at close to 14 hours before turn times.

[zortan]

Said MIT study excludes turn times, thus my mention of turn times in my previous post.

 

Weirdly enough, it was an all-narrowbody airline (Jetblue) that topped the list at close to 14 hours before turn times.

Yes, and Spirit does like 15 or something.

 

However, turn times would require that number to be LOWERED from the 14 or 15 listed because they can't be active hours on the plane. So as i said. 9 for regional. 10 for narrow body. 13 for wide body. 

 

i insist

That's not reasoning or evidence. Please come back with a reputable study from ANYONE REPUTABLE that shows that any plane is EVER used 24 h a day

[Pacific]

As I said, the hours from MITis block hours which excludes turn time. AE hours includes block time and turn time. Therefore, AE hours need to be higher than MIT hours to be comparable.

 

e.g. An A320 gets used for 13 MIT hours, flying 5 sectors. Each turnaround takes 35 minutes.

Excluding the first and last flights, there are 4 turnarounds, 35 x 4 = 140 minutes.

 

The 13 MIT hours turns into 15 hours and 20 minutes in AE terms.

[SUJETO]

As I said, the hours from MITis block hours [...]

And 35 min is fast. in the case that the aircraft have no flaws all day. For international flights is like 1h or 1h:30
 

Yes, and Spirit does like 15 or something.
 
However, turn times would require that number to be LOWERED from the 14 or 15 listed because they can't be active hours on the plane. So as i said. 9 for regional. 10 for narrow body. 13 for wide body. 
 
That's not reasoning or evidence. Please come back with a reputable study from ANYONE REPUTABLE that shows that any plane is EVER used 24 h a day

I think, like you, MIT may be do their study in a agricultural operation airport. because have sense there.

- - - - - - -

Well im waiting to do a better thread. but my EVIDENCE is based in direct testing. Nobody tolds me a stydy or told me that is.

LONG HAUL PLANES and LONG FLIGHTS:

YOu forget the long haul planes operation, and other airlines use their medium planes even in the late night and early morning.
SOme airports open 24h at day. ¿what its the sense receiving and dispatching planes at 2:00am? because Airlines DO!

my first example is the IBERIA FLIGHTS: Operation A340-500 -600 for 24h (block time included)
they do MAD-UIO-GYE-MAD all week (discontinued in march after decades)
ANd that is not the only, some airlines in the past do same kind of flight with 747-200 -400 like AIRFRANCE : CDG-CCS-BOG-UIO-BOG-CCS-CDG all week
LUFTHANSA and KLM do the same and similar route. That kind of flights are more than 24h of continuous operation.

What do you think do some airlines with their long haul planes after a long flight, the obvious thing is turn around for home in the same aircraft, that is the natural operation of that kind of aircraft, and they made for that, to stay all the time in the skies because, stopped plane is a wastage of money. then im thinking about those planes that have brutal range, that flights are like 11 or 12h of flight, and 2h of turn-around and 11h-12h of return, are flights with more than 24h of continuous operation.

 

AIRCRAFT TYPE:

I can understand that some type of aircraft like ATR could not operate in the early morning because dont have enough endurance to sustain a 4h or 3h continuous flight to depart to 11:00pm or 12:00pm and arrive at 5:45am or 6:00am
But LOOK:
The earth globe keeps rotating, and the sun rises from the east, all flights that fly to the east gain some hours of operation. that its the case of flights that depart from USA west coast at midnight and arrive to a east coast a early ours in the next day.

i have a old AA timetable: of 2002
look: flight AA192 LAX-BOS 757 departing at 9:55pm and arriving at BOS at 6:33 a next day. fling all the night.
They even do with more smaller planes!
the flight continues today with A321 AAL1379 you can see:
http://flightaware.c.../flight/AAL1379
https://www.google.c...nes flight 1379

This is a another case with other airline, its easy to find in internet:

737-700
http://flightaware.c...e/flight/ASA108
https://www.google.c...ka Airlines 108

Then a plane capable to flight 3h can make some near all night flights. even turboprops with more than 3h endurance.

24h operating AIRPORTS:

NOW flights departing/arriving at (of work times) like late night and early morning.
Some people say about its irreal because nobody will flight in that times.
Its very funny to hear because here in UIO-ECUADOR-SOUTH AMERICA , American Airlines call their passengers to stay in the airport 3h before their flight UIO-MIA departing 6:30am or 7:00am MEANING: the passengers dont sleep for flight preparations, they must travel to the airport at 2:30am (1 hour of travel to the airport) and stay boring in the airport near all early morning, waiting the call for boarding at 6:00 am. the plane takes of at 6:30 am. for a 24h operating airport.

I recommend to those people that thinks that the airport close at 8:00pm switch all off and all go home. to watch:

http://flightaware.com/live/ in some late night/early morning airport activity at that time,

And i hihgly recommend to hear this page setting on LAX airport:

https://www.liveatc....earch/?icao=LAX
And click LISTEN frequencies KLAX Tower
Hear it when LOS ANGELES late night / early morning:
You will heard departing and arriving flights all the day/ all the night.

Like all big airports of the world.

 

- - - - - 

That 3 things that i show, are direct testing, Aren´t speculation or suppositions or (some guy told me). Is the real airline working.

And if somebody don't believe its because fancy or their world is so small. 

I insist. Utilization depends of Airline, aircraft and airport. 10h to 24h.

 

And sorry for my bad English.

 

 

 

[zortan]

As I said, the hours from MITis block hours which excludes turn time. AE hours includes block time and turn time. Therefore, AE hours need to be higher than MIT hours to be comparable.

 

e.g. An A320 gets used for 13 MIT hours, flying 5 sectors. Each turnaround takes 35 minutes.

Excluding the first and last flights, there are 4 turnarounds, 35 x 4 = 140 minutes.

 

The 13 MIT hours turns into 15 hours and 20 minutes in AE terms.

oh ok fair lol. Got my maths mixed up

However, the turn time listed for planes in AE is minimum turn time, which isn't enough. With this turn time, say 35 mins for the A320 or so, you're likely to have 50% of your flights delayed by more than half an hour, which isn't very realistic (well, for some airlines, but you know )

 

And 35 min is fast. in the case that the aircraft have no flaws all day. For international flights is like 1h or 1h:30
 

I think, like you, MIT may be do their study in a agricultural operation airport. because have sense there.

- - - - - - -

Well im waiting to do a better thread. but my EVIDENCE is based in direct testing. Nobody tolds me a stydy or told me that is.

LONG HAUL PLANES and LONG FLIGHTS:

YOu forget the long haul planes operation, and other airlines use their medium planes even in the late night and early morning.
SOme airports open 24h at day. ¿what its the sense receiving and dispatching planes at 2:00am? because Airlines DO!

my first example is the IBERIA FLIGHTS: Operation A340-500 -600 for 24h (block time included)
they do MAD-UIO-GYE-MAD all week (discontinued in march after decades)
ANd that is not the only, some airlines in the past do same kind of flight with 747-200 -400 like AIRFRANCE : CDG-CCS-BOG-UIO-BOG-CCS-CDG all week
LUFTHANSA and KLM do the same and similar route. That kind of flights are more than 24h of continuous operation.

What do you think do some airlines with their long haul planes after a long flight, the obvious thing is turn around for home in the same aircraft, that is the natural operation of that kind of aircraft, and they made for that, to stay all the time in the skies because, stopped plane is a wastage of money. then im thinking about those planes that have brutal range, that flights are like 11 or 12h of flight, and 2h of turn-around and 11h-12h of return, are flights with more than 24h of continuous operation.

 

AIRCRAFT TYPE:

I can understand that some type of aircraft like ATR could not operate in the early morning because dont have enough endurance to sustain a 4h or 3h continuous flight to depart to 11:00pm or 12:00pm and arrive at 5:45am or 6:00am
But LOOK:
The earth globe keeps rotating, and the sun rises from the east, all flights that fly to the east gain some hours of operation. that its the case of flights that depart from USA west coast at midnight and arrive to a east coast a early ours in the next day.

i have a old AA timetable: of 2002
look: flight AA192 LAX-BOS 757 departing at 9:55pm and arriving at BOS at 6:33 a next day. fling all the night.
They even do with more smaller planes!
the flight continues today with A321 AAL1379 you can see:
http://flightaware.c.../flight/AAL1379
https://www.google.c...nes flight 1379

This is a another case with other airline, its easy to find in internet:

737-700
http://flightaware.c...e/flight/ASA108
https://www.google.c...ka Airlines 108

Then a plane capable to flight 3h can make some near all night flights. even turboprops with more than 3h endurance.

24h operating AIRPORTS:

NOW flights departing/arriving at (of work times) like late night and early morning.
Some people say about its irreal because nobody will flight in that times.
Its very funny to hear because here in UIO-ECUADOR-SOUTH AMERICA , American Airlines call their passengers to stay in the airport 3h before their flight UIO-MIA departing 6:30am or 7:00am MEANING: the passengers dont sleep for flight preparations, they must travel to the airport at 2:30am (1 hour of travel to the airport) and stay boring in the airport near all early morning, waiting the call for boarding at 6:00 am. the plane takes of at 6:30 am. for a 24h operating airport.

I recommend to those people that thinks that the airport close at 8:00pm switch all off and all go home. to watch:

http://flightaware.com/live/ in some late night/early morning airport activity at that time,

And i hihgly recommend to hear this page setting on LAX airport:

https://www.liveatc....earch/?icao=LAX
And click LISTEN frequencies KLAX Tower
Hear it when LOS ANGELES late night / early morning:
You will heard departing and arriving flights all the day/ all the night.

Like all big airports of the world.

 

- - - - - 

That 3 things that i show, are direct testing, Aren´t speculation or suppositions or (some guy told me). Is the real airline working.

And if somebody don't believe its because fancy or their world is so small. 

I insist. Utilization depends of Airline, aircraft and airport. 10h to 24h.

 

And sorry for my bad English.

 

 

 

Sure the AIRPORTS operate 24h a day, only some of them of course, some have curfew, but that's another matter. Planes, however, do not. using the example of your Iberia A340, that isn't FLYING 24h a day! It flies, then has to turn around, then flies, then turns around, then flies, and so on. The plane takes time for the turn around. Plus, once a week, there is scheduled maintenance, so there has to be room made for that as well. 

[SUJETO]

oh ok fair lol. Got my maths mixed up

However, the turn time listed for planes in AE is minimum turn time, which isn't enough. With this turn time, say 35 mins for the A320 or so, you're likely to have 50% of your flights delayed by more than half an hour, which isn't very realistic (well, for some airlines, but you know )

 

Sure the AIRPORTS operate 24h a day, only some of them of course, some have curfew, but that's another matter. Planes, however, do not. using the example of your Iberia A340, that isn't FLYING 24h a day! It flies, then has to turn around, then flies, then turns around, then flies, and so on. The plane takes time for the turn around. Plus, once a week, there is scheduled maintenance, so there has to be room made for that as well. 

I HAPPY that you assimilated a small piece. 

 

¿curfew ? what is that, the airplane operations are closed the terminal and airlines, maintenance continue working even people sleeping inside  There are food need to be cook to serve in the morning flights, aircraft must be checked and washed.. you need to pay a visit to a airport in that hours.   Airplanes arent autobuses. and airports arent park lots.

 

the thing is the game have 20h not 24h.. meaning 4h accumulated or not are for that things, A,B, C and D checks and other things. I show you that there are planes using more than 24 hour at day. with airports and flights. i think 20h of dialy utilization is fine. 

[zortan]

I HAPPY that you assimilated a small piece. 

 

¿curfew ? what is that, the airplane operations are closed the terminal and airlines, maintenance continue working even people sleeping inside  There are food need to be cook to serve in the morning flights, aircraft must be checked and washed.. you need to pay a visit to a airport in that hours.   Airplanes arent autobuses. and airports arent park lots.

 

the thing is the game have 20h not 24h.. meaning 4h accumulated or not are for that things, A,B, C and D checks and other things. I show you that there are planes using more than 24 hour at day. with airports and flights. i think 20h of dialy utilization is fine. 

Well, an A check takes 5 hours, so there's 19 right there instead of 20. Plus - airports do close. Take this one for example: Maui (OGG). They are closed from 11pm to 6 am, which means that NO aircraft can land there other than in an emergency. There are no staff at the airport, it is SHUT. This is because they want to keep it closed late so that the people nearby don't get woken up. Don't get me wrong either, this airport has long-haul flights as well as short-haul flights, so there are no excuses about 2am landings you can make there. Plus - you still haven't given me a good source for your "24h utilization"

[Pacific]

24 hour airports (with some restrictions) do exist. HKG has flights departing/arriving (at a reduced rate) in the small hours of the morning.

 

HKG Departures

http://www.hongkonga.../chkfltdep.html

 

HKG Arrivals

http://www.hongkonga.../chkfltarr.html

 

 

Also, if we increase the turn time of an A320 to 60 minutes instead of 35, on a 5 sector day with 13 MIT hours = 17 AE hours of utilization!

[SUJETO]

Well, an A check takes 5 hours, so there's 19 right there instead of 20. Plus - airports do close. Take this one for example: Maui (OGG). They are closed from 11pm to 6 am, which means that NO aircraft can land there other than in an emergency. There are no staff at the airport, it is SHUT. This is because they want to keep it closed late so that the people nearby don't get woken up. Don't get me wrong either, this airport has long-haul flights as well as short-haul flights, so there are no excuses about 2am landings you can make there. Plus - you still haven't given me a good source for your "24h utilization"

I give 3 evidences. you are lazy to read or fancy to accept.
 

24 hour airports (with some restrictions) do exist. HKG has flights departing/arriving (at a reduced rate) in the small hours of the morning.
 
HKG Departures
http://www.hongkonga.../chkfltdep.html
 
HKG Arrivals
http://www.hongkonga.../chkfltarr.html
 
 
Also, if we increase the turn time of an A320 to 60 minutes instead of 35, on a 5 sector day with 13 MIT hours = 17 AE hours of utilization!

Yeah and that is for A320.. like i said for international flights are delayed turn-around. imagine logically in a 747-8

[Pacific]

Internationals are a mixed bag. Some planes are "in use" for 24 hours on a 3-port longhaul cycle, others have "idle" hours used up in regionals (esp in Asia) while some have their planes sitting on the ground for half a day!

[zortan]

24 hour airports (with some restrictions) do exist. HKG has flights departing/arriving (at a reduced rate) in the small hours of the morning.

 

HKG Departures

http://www.hongkonga.../chkfltdep.html

 

HKG Arrivals

http://www.hongkonga.../chkfltarr.html

 

 

Also, if we increase the turn time of an A320 to 60 minutes instead of 35, on a 5 sector day with 13 MIT hours = 17 AE hours of utilization!

yes i know, just there are also ones that aren't open 24h a day is my main point with that. I'm gonna actually ask someone about that 17 hr calculation you did there, one sec for that.

 

I give 3 evidences. you are lazy to read or fancy to accept.
 

Yeah and that is for A320.. like i said for international flights are delayed turn-around. imagine logically in a 747-8

Lazy? Not a chance. Please pay attention. I'm saying I don't want something you make up from your brain, I want actual facts published from a University, lab or something else reputable.

[SUJETO]

and this is very curious because i want to see the late night flights, and i did open now flightaware page:

 flightaware.png   835.93KB   0 downloads

i live in Ecuador same as east time some times here is 00:00 local 05:00 utc all flights of east of here are in early morning, and some airports like CSS are receiving planes like other airport even my locally UIO.
You still see a lot of planes.

A alone flight over the pacific caught my atention:

 ANZ29.png   1.13MB   0 downloads

You can see the progres here:
http://flightaware.c...ve/flight/ANZ29

now 777-200 utilizacion 13h40 min to go + 2h of block time + 13h40 to back = 29h20m of utilization.....

[SUJETO]

yes i know, just there are also ones that aren't open 24h a day is my main point with that. I'm gonna actually ask someone about that 17 hr calculation you did there, one sec for that.

 

Lazy? Not a chance. Please pay attention. I'm saying I don't want something you make up from your brain, I want actual facts published from a University, lab or something else reputable.

okay not all airports are open 24h,, i think in those airports of sun operation. but that is not a restriction. because not all airports are sun operation too.

 

today there are studies for all. and one more weird than other. I BELIEVE in things logical and common sense  Because is my own direct proof better than some brilliant guy told me he did a study.

[Pacific]

Did someone from here post on A.net lol
http://www.airliners...p?f=5&t=1380265