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Why does Zortan hate A320s so much?


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#21
HanTseng

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Mos low cost carriers, especially newer ones, tend to use A320s. On the other hand, a lot less LCCs use the 737s, which might give the people a better reputation of the 737s. However, I've found both of them pretty similar, and without IFE on a lot of airlines, something that I don't enjoy.


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#22
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Mos low cost carriers, especially newer ones, tend to use A320s. On the other hand, a lot less LCCs use the 737s, which might give the people a better reputation of the 737s. However, I've found both of them pretty similar, and without IFE on a lot of airlines, something that I don't enjoy.

A320 and 737s are aimed for shorted flights, and shorter flights do not "need" IFE. And yes, 737 is used a lot less in LCC and the LCC that use them are reputable ones like Ryanair (compared to most A320 LCCs) and Southwest. 


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#23
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Because a320s are evil. Except Jetblue's, they're amazing.
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#24
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What I have seen is that A320s have been abused by airlines like Frontier too much. That is why a lot of people hate A320. The 737s are operated by "good" LCC like Southwest. Although there is one exception for A320: JetBlue.


A lot of this is because training is quicker and cheaper due to the many protections to make it easier to fly and dark cockpit technology to make it easier to learn flows. The flow in the A320 is essentially push all the white lights until they go out. You have to know what everything does, but you save time during prep and during training because you don’t have to memorise three position switch settings.
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#25
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A320 and 737s are aimed for shorted flights, and shorter flights do not "need" IFE. And yes, 737 is used a lot less in LCC and the LCC that use them are reputable ones like Ryanair (compared to most A320 LCCs) and Southwest.


WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM? I would never fly Ryanair (Not just because BA pays my wages). They are always declaring fuel emergencies because their pilots are pressured into taking the lowest legally allowed amount of fuel. If there are more than 2 Ryanair flights on the same airport approach frequency as me, I automatically send a message to the ground staff saying a delay is likely. Their pilots are also notorious among the other airlines for poor landing technique, often going around for no other reason than they messed up.
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#26
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Well, according to the Aviation Safety Network, the 737-800 has had 12 hull loses, while the A320 has had 33. The 737-800 is newer than the A320, but still, I wouldn't make the claim that they crash more. 
 
​Still don't get why he hates them though.


That is like saying that in a particularly nice neighbourhood in one city has had less break-ins than the whole of another city. What you’re quoting is the number of hull losses in the WHOLE A320 family against a SINGLE variant of the 737, the 737-800. You have to remember that the 737 NG is 9 years newer than the A320, which is actually 4 years closer to the 737 Classic series. Aviation gets safer every year, so the 9 years at the start of the A320 were also its most dangerous, especially being a whole new aircraft piloting concept. All 737 Classic crashes happened from 1988 (the first year of the A320) onwards. When we add the 55 hull losses of the 737 Classic to the 15 of the NG, we get 70 Hull Losses for the 737 from 1988 onwards. The A320 has had 35, half as many in the same time.
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#27
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To settle this, I have flown A320s and flown on 737s, as well as flying 767s and 777s. The A320 cockpit is more intuitive than any other I've seen or flown. The 737 felt more powerful and manipulatable when I flew on it. The A320 might be like this partially due to the fly-by-wire system attempting to make the ride better, but I can tell you that auto-trim and engine failure compensation is a gift from the heavens, IT IS SO HELPFUL. I had an A320 fail and engine on me once in an unknown scenario sim and I wouldn't have noticed had the indicators and call outs not been there, apart from the speed. It handled almost exactly the same.The only difference was that the rudder pedals were less effective on one side due to the trim.
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#28
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To settle this, I have flown A320s and flown on 737s, as well as flying 767s and 777s. The A320 cockpit is more intuitive than any other I've seen or flown. The 737 felt more powerful and manipulatable when I flew on it. The A320 might be like this partially due to the fly-by-wire system attempting to make the ride better, but I can tell you that auto-trim and engine failure compensation is a gift from the heavens, IT IS SO HELPFUL. I had an A320 fail and engine on me once in an unknown scenario sim and I wouldn't have noticed had the indicators and call outs not been there, apart from the speed. It handled almost exactly the same.The only difference was that the rudder pedals were less effective on one side due to the trim.

 

 I'm going to second this. 

 

Never mind there's a person who knows what he's talking about now. 


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#29
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yeah yeah but let's compare mainline if you want to. Delta mainline A319/A320 usually don't have entertainment and have old seats. Their 737-800s usually have entertainment and newer seats.

 

Have you ever seen a Delta A320 cabin?

 

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Really, if you compare 737s and A320s that have had their cabins installed around the same time, you'll find that they're pretty similar.

 

Also if we're going to discuss the "best" cabin based on whatever the airline has installed in it, I think you'll find that American's A321s are probably the best narrowbody aircraft in commercial service:

 

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#30
zelalemon

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Have you ever seen a Delta A320 cabin?

 

USM37ji.jpg

 

Really, if you compare 737s and A320s that have had their cabins installed around the same time, you'll find that they're pretty similar.

 

Also if we're going to discuss the "best" cabin based on whatever the airline has installed in it, I think you'll find that American's A321s are probably the best narrowbody aircraft in commercial service:

 

aa-6.jpg

 

Business-Class-Cabin-in-flight-on-Americ

Only a select few of american A321s look like that. Flew one recently from CLT-PHX and it was pretty boring, regular economy class, same as the 738s.


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#31
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That is like saying that in a particularly nice neighbourhood in one city has had less break-ins than the whole of another city. What you’re quoting is the number of hull losses in the WHOLE A320 family against a SINGLE variant of the 737, the 737-800. You have to remember that the 737 NG is 9 years newer than the A320, which is actually 4 years closer to the 737 Classic series. Aviation gets safer every year, so the 9 years at the start of the A320 were also its most dangerous, especially being a whole new aircraft piloting concept. All 737 Classic crashes happened from 1988 (the first year of the A320) onwards. When we add the 55 hull losses of the 737 Classic to the 15 of the NG, we get 70 Hull Losses for the 737 from 1988 onwards. The A320 has had 35, half as many in the same time.

Good point.



#32
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Okay - since this is about me in the first place, I'm going to settle it. Cabin is totally irrelevant pretty much, that's just operator. I was just saying that in my experience, Delta A320 cabins have consistently been a lot worse than their 737 cabins. About the A321, whatever, that could be done with a 737 easilly, Malaysian is doing something like that with the 737 MAX 10 possibly if they ever release the goddamed interiors. I realize that some of you (ahem, not naming names here), prefer the A320 while flying, but may I remind you that the A320 has has a few incidents due to it being difficult to understand and fly. The Air France flight which was a flyover at an air show, the air Inter flight, and the AirAsia flight. I'm sure those of you who are educated in this would know what I'm talking about. There was once an incident blamed on airbus' fly-by-wire, which was QF72 i believe is the flight number, uncommanded pitch excursions if i'm not mistaken. There was also AF442 which was partly because of no AOA indicator in the cockpit. Finally, as you mentionned yourself, the 737 is a more agile and enjoyable plane to fly. I'm not blaming Boeing for RyanAir's bullsh** as well. Now - the numbers: Boeing 737-700 has 740 nmi more range than the A319, while having a similar seating capacity. When comparing max to neo: MAX 8 has 15nmi range more than 320neo. MAX9 has 15nmi more range than A321neo. The max7 has 75nmi more range than the 319neo. Also - I'm comparing fly-by-wire planes here, not the classic to the nextgen, I don't care how new the nextgen is or isn't. When you use a ratio of age to crashes A320 to 737 nextgen, the 737 wins by a long shot. Now: Operators. I can't pick who flies what, but in this case, it does favor boeing quite a bit. A320 is operated by IndiGo, Go Air, EasyJet, Spirit, Frontier, and many other terrible LCCs. LCC 737 operators include SouthWest, Alaska, and others, which are quite less terrible than their counterparts. Not to say that there aren't exceptions - JetBlue A320s are pretty nice, and Ryanair 737s aren't the best, but still. In terms of the TransCon config on American's A321s, anyone can, as I already said. I could make a similar config on a 737-900/ER, 737 MAX9 or 10, or on a 757, or even a 767 if I wanted to, or possibly a 787, much nicer plane. Anyhow, Delta and United both operate quite premium-ified 757s transcon, so that point is pretty invalid. 737 also uses a Yoke, which is better than a sidestick, although I'm sure many will disagree on that one. The yoke is easier to control, and you can use your left hand for other operations if you want (as captian), instead of needing it to fly with. The SideStick also favors people who are able to easily control a plane with their left hand as captain, while the yoke permits both left-and-right handed people to fly easily. (see, I told you I give long and nasty arguments :P stop arguing :D)



#33
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Okay - since this is about me in the first place, I'm going to settle it. Cabin is totally irrelevant pretty much, that's just operator. I was just saying that in my experience, Delta A320 cabins have consistently been a lot worse than their 737 cabins. About the A321, whatever, that could be done with a 737 easilly, Malaysian is doing something like that with the 737 MAX 10 possibly if they ever release the goddamed interiors. I realize that some of you (ahem, not naming names here), prefer the A320 while flying, but may I remind you that the A320 has has a few incidents due to it being difficult to understand and fly. The Air France flight which was a flyover at an air show, the air Inter flight, and the AirAsia flight. I'm sure those of you who are educated in this would know what I'm talking about. There was once an incident blamed on airbus' fly-by-wire, which was QF72 i believe is the flight number, uncommanded pitch excursions if i'm not mistaken. There was also AF442 which was partly because of no AOA indicator in the cockpit. Finally, as you mentionned yourself, the 737 is a more agile and enjoyable plane to fly. I'm not blaming Boeing for RyanAir's bullsh** as well. Now - the numbers: Boeing 737-700 has 740 nmi more range than the A319, while having a similar seating capacity. When comparing max to neo: MAX 8 has 15nmi range more than 320neo. MAX9 has 15nmi more range than A321neo. The max7 has 75nmi more range than the 319neo. Also - I'm comparing fly-by-wire planes here, not the classic to the nextgen, I don't care how new the nextgen is or isn't. When you use a ratio of age to crashes A320 to 737 nextgen, the 737 wins by a long shot. Now: Operators. I can't pick who flies what, but in this case, it does favor boeing quite a bit. A320 is operated by IndiGo, Go Air, EasyJet, Spirit, Frontier, and many other terrible LCCs. LCC 737 operators include SouthWest, Alaska, and others, which are quite less terrible than their counterparts. Not to say that there aren't exceptions - JetBlue A320s are pretty nice, and Ryanair 737s aren't the best, but still. In terms of the TransCon config on American's A321s, anyone can, as I already said. I could make a similar config on a 737-900/ER, 737 MAX9 or 10, or on a 757, or even a 767 if I wanted to, or possibly a 787, much nicer plane. Anyhow, Delta and United both operate quite premium-ified 757s transcon, so that point is pretty invalid. 737 also uses a Yoke, which is better than a sidestick, although I'm sure many will disagree on that one. The yoke is easier to control, and you can use your left hand for other operations if you want (as captian), instead of needing it to fly with. The SideStick also favors people who are able to easily control a plane with their left hand as captain, while the yoke permits both left-and-right handed people to fly easily. (see, I told you I give long and nasty arguments :P stop arguing :D)

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#34
Marb1

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Okay - since this is about me in the first place, I'm going to settle it. Cabin is totally irrelevant pretty much, that's just operator. I was just saying that in my experience, Delta A320 cabins have consistently been a lot worse than their 737 cabins. About the A321, whatever, that could be done with a 737 easilly, Malaysian is doing something like that with the 737 MAX 10 possibly if they ever release the goddamed interiors. I realize that some of you (ahem, not naming names here), prefer the A320 while flying, but may I remind you that the A320 has has a few incidents due to it being difficult to understand and fly. The Air France flight which was a flyover at an air show, the air Inter flight, and the AirAsia flight. I'm sure those of you who are educated in this would know what I'm talking about. There was once an incident blamed on airbus' fly-by-wire, which was QF72 i believe is the flight number, uncommanded pitch excursions if i'm not mistaken. There was also AF442 which was partly because of no AOA indicator in the cockpit. Finally, as you mentionned yourself, the 737 is a more agile and enjoyable plane to fly. I'm not blaming Boeing for RyanAir's bullsh** as well. Now - the numbers: Boeing 737-700 has 740 nmi more range than the A319, while having a similar seating capacity. When comparing max to neo: MAX 8 has 15nmi range more than 320neo. MAX9 has 15nmi more range than A321neo. The max7 has 75nmi more range than the 319neo. Also - I'm comparing fly-by-wire planes here, not the classic to the nextgen, I don't care how new the nextgen is or isn't. When you use a ratio of age to crashes A320 to 737 nextgen, the 737 wins by a long shot. Now: Operators. I can't pick who flies what, but in this case, it does favor boeing quite a bit. A320 is operated by IndiGo, Go Air, EasyJet, Spirit, Frontier, and many other terrible LCCs. LCC 737 operators include SouthWest, Alaska, and others, which are quite less terrible than their counterparts. Not to say that there aren't exceptions - JetBlue A320s are pretty nice, and Ryanair 737s aren't the best, but still. In terms of the TransCon config on American's A321s, anyone can, as I already said. I could make a similar config on a 737-900/ER, 737 MAX9 or 10, or on a 757, or even a 767 if I wanted to, or possibly a 787, much nicer plane. Anyhow, Delta and United both operate quite premium-ified 757s transcon, so that point is pretty invalid. 737 also uses a Yoke, which is better than a sidestick, although I'm sure many will disagree on that one. The yoke is easier to control, and you can use your left hand for other operations if you want (as captian), instead of needing it to fly with. The SideStick also favors people who are able to easily control a plane with their left hand as captain, while the yoke permits both left-and-right handed people to fly easily. (see, I told you I give long and nasty arguments :P stop arguing :D)

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#35
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Only a select few of american A321s look like that. Flew one recently from CLT-PHX and it was pretty boring, regular economy class, same as the 738s.

 

I know, they're the A321s that fly JFK-SFO/LAX.


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#36
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I don't think 15nmi is going to make a big difference. You would still be flying to the same city, essentially. The A320 has had some accidents due to difficulty understanding the systems. The same happened in the 50s and 60s when Boeing started making jets with a control column instead of a standard yoke. In certain manoeuvres, you had to move it differently to a traditional in-out yoke, so there were 1 or 2 crashes because of it. AND IT WAS AIR FRANCE 447 which, by the way, was caused by an idiot who ignored his ASI, his colleague and 75 stall warnings.
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#37
PingPong

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Okay - since this is about me in the first place, I'm going to settle it. Cabin is totally irrelevant pretty much, that's just operator. I was just saying that in my experience, Delta A320 cabins have consistently been a lot worse than their 737 cabins. About the A321, whatever, that could be done with a 737 easilly, Malaysian is doing something like that with the 737 MAX 10 possibly if they ever release the goddamed interiors. I realize that some of you (ahem, not naming names here), prefer the A320 while flying, but may I remind you that the A320 has has a few incidents due to it being difficult to understand and fly. The Air France flight which was a flyover at an air show, the air Inter flight, and the AirAsia flight. I'm sure those of you who are educated in this would know what I'm talking about. There was once an incident blamed on airbus' fly-by-wire, which was QF72 i believe is the flight number, uncommanded pitch excursions if i'm not mistaken. There was also AF442 which was partly because of no AOA indicator in the cockpit. Finally, as you mentionned yourself, the 737 is a more agile and enjoyable plane to fly. I'm not blaming Boeing for RyanAir's bullsh** as well. Now - the numbers: Boeing 737-700 has 740 nmi more range than the A319, while having a similar seating capacity. When comparing max to neo: MAX 8 has 15nmi range more than 320neo. MAX9 has 15nmi more range than A321neo. The max7 has 75nmi more range than the 319neo. Also - I'm comparing fly-by-wire planes here, not the classic to the nextgen, I don't care how new the nextgen is or isn't. When you use a ratio of age to crashes A320 to 737 nextgen, the 737 wins by a long shot. Now: Operators. I can't pick who flies what, but in this case, it does favor boeing quite a bit. A320 is operated by IndiGo, Go Air, EasyJet, Spirit, Frontier, and many other terrible LCCs. LCC 737 operators include SouthWest, Alaska, and others, which are quite less terrible than their counterparts. Not to say that there aren't exceptions - JetBlue A320s are pretty nice, and Ryanair 737s aren't the best, but still. In terms of the TransCon config on American's A321s, anyone can, as I already said. I could make a similar config on a 737-900/ER, 737 MAX9 or 10, or on a 757, or even a 767 if I wanted to, or possibly a 787, much nicer plane. Anyhow, Delta and United both operate quite premium-ified 757s transcon, so that point is pretty invalid. 737 also uses a Yoke, which is better than a sidestick, although I'm sure many will disagree on that one. The yoke is easier to control, and you can use your left hand for other operations if you want (as captian), instead of needing it to fly with. The SideStick also favors people who are able to easily control a plane with their left hand as captain, while the yoke permits both left-and-right handed people to fly easily. (see, I told you I give long and nasty arguments :P stop arguing :D)


I find easyJet to be a great airline, compared to Ryanair. You can't not blame Boeing for Ryanair operating their planes if you're going to blame Airbus for easyJet and other LCCs operating their planes.
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#38
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On the subject of A320 vs 737, I've asked some of my work colleagues and, while there were mixed responses, a few said they'd take the DC-9 over both, due to its raw mechanical controls, using trim and control tabs instead of leakable hydraulics, as well as the autopilot being disabled with 1 circuit breaker in the case of a malfunction and the lack of assymetric trust on engine failures due to the tail mounts.
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#39
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Ok, pilot’s dream short-haul jet, by verdict of 28 BA short-haul pilots who have flown the A320 and 737, including 11 former DC-9/MD-80/90/Boeing 717/BAC 111/Hawker Siddley Trident pilots.

A320 Cockpit
737 Body, Wings and Engines
DC-9/111/Trident (Outer Mounts Only) Tail and Engine Mounting Position (DC-9 engines are weak compared to CFM-56s.)
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#40
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Ok, pilot’s dream short-haul jet, by verdict of 28 BA short-haul pilots who have flown the A320 and 737, including 11 former DC-9/MD-80/90/Boeing 717/BAC 111/Hawker Siddley Trident pilots.

A320 Cockpit
737 Body, Wings and Engines
DC-9/111/Trident (Outer Mounts Only) Tail and Engine Mounting Position (DC-9 engines are weak compared to CFM-56s.)


I'd also add in the sheer overperformance of the 757, with the handling of the Mercure. Damn things take off like rockets and handle like fighters.

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