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Long Haul Flights that Seem to Have Unecessary Stopovers?


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#1
Pagan

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I've recently stumbled upon something while poking around in FlightAware, which is long distance routes that have a stop over that seems unnecessary for the amount of distance between the two cities. As in, why are these airlines making stops on routes where planes could travel that distance non stop? A few examples below:

JFK to DXB with a stop in MXP (Emirates)
JFK to MNL with a stop in YVR (Philippines)
IAD to ADD with a stop in DUB (Ethiopian)
JFK to ICN with a stop in ANC (Korean Airlines)

Are they trying to get a chance to add more customers? Do they not have the right aircraft and find it easier to just make do with a refueling stop and the planes they have? I discovered that that Korean example is cargo, but it still baffles me. Also, these airlines are getting special permission to fly a leg of the trip that doesn't start or end in their home country, yes? I vaguely remember press about the Emirates example making European carriers mad for squeezing in on their turf.

Whenever I google this question I just get idiotic articles about "what is a layover" so I thought I'd ask. I did find on the Ethiopian wiki a note about a São Paulo to Guangzhou route they added via Lome and ADD, which with a grand total of over 18,000km makes more sense. Anyway I'm a bit nutty when it comes to routes, so thanks for your help in advance :P
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#2
Frdm920

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DUB is a fuel stop for ET on outbound services from ADD to IAD (and YYZ) due to departure weight restrictions at ADD.

 

The rest are probably a combination of more customers or headwinds meaning a fuel stop is required (for instace QF's DFW-SYD flights previously required a fuel stop in BNE)


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#3
Pagan

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So interesting, thanks! I had no idea weather conditions could cause enough trouble to affect regular scheduling. Wouldn't that be an interesting add to AE. 

 

As much as my curiosity is quenched now I gotta know what is getting shipped to Alaska from Seoul of all places. I guess it's not that surprising but of all the origins for cargo to Alaska I never would have picked Seoul. 


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#4
Jamesthomeson

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So interesting, thanks! I had no idea weather conditions could cause enough trouble to affect regular scheduling. Wouldn't that be an interesting add to AE. 
 
As much as my curiosity is quenched now I gotta know what is getting shipped to Alaska from Seoul of all places. I guess it's not that surprising but of all the origins for cargo to Alaska I never would have picked Seoul.

Can't say I'm an expert on this kind of stuff, but i do know that Anchorage Ted Stevens is one of the largest cargo airports in the world and its most likely a large transfer point for cargo between Asia and the western world.
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#5
Jamesthomeson

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Anchorage is the second largest cargo airport in the U.S.
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#6
berubium

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JFK to MNL with a stop in YVR (Philippines)
 

 

The Philippines MNL-YVR-JFK service is a fifth freedom route for them.  There's not quite enough demand for them to fill a plane between MNL & YVR or MNL & JFK, so they operate that route & enjoy the right to sell tickets to anybody on the YVR-JFK route.  They used to do it for MNL-YVR-LAS, but changed it a couple of years ago to MNL-YVR-JFK (I presume because of lack of demand between MNL & LAS as well as saturation of YVR-LAS by Air Canada & WestJet).  Phillipines prices are actually pretty good for YVR-JFK.

Interestingly, the only direct services between YVR & JFK are provided by Asian carriers enjoying 5th freedom rights.  Cathay Pacific also does it with a HKG-YVR-JFK routing & I remember reading awhile back that the YVR-JFK leg was very profitable for them.  Domestic carriers (Air Canada & United) provide service between YVR & EWR, but Cathay Pacific has done a good job (until recently) of keeping other airlines off the YVR-JFK route.  They squeezed out HMY Airways (defunct Canadian carrier) several years ago I recall.


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#7
MSG17

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The Philippines MNL-YVR-JFK service is a fifth freedom route for them.  There's not quite enough demand for them to fill a plane between MNL & YVR or MNL & JFK, so they operate that route & enjoy the right to sell tickets to anybody on the YVR-JFK route.  They used to do it for MNL-YVR-LAS, but changed it a couple of years ago to MNL-YVR-JFK (I presume because of lack of demand between MNL & LAS as well as saturation of YVR-LAS by Air Canada & WestJet).  Phillipines prices are actually pretty good for YVR-JFK.

Interestingly, the only direct services between YVR & JFK are provided by Asian carriers enjoying 5th freedom rights.  Cathay Pacific also does it with a HKG-YVR-JFK routing & I remember reading awhile back that the YVR-JFK leg was very profitable for them.  Domestic carriers (Air Canada & United) provide service between YVR & EWR, but Cathay Pacific has done a good job (until recently) of keeping other airlines off the YVR-JFK route.  They squeezed out HMY Airways (defunct Canadian carrier) several years ago I recall.

 

Wow, thats pretty interesting that JFK-YVR nonstops are only done by Asian carriers. I guess its profitable since businesspeople probably like the service and possibily since they can get wifi on the flights.

 

Another interesting route is AI's EWR-LHR-AMD route, because for some late booking (ex. within a month's notice, like the defualt on Google) it is actually the cheapest NYC-LON option. Also, I think a lot of Middle Eastern airlines run service between SIN, BKK, and HKG based on the stops needed for flights to their home countries.



#8
A220

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ET is done because the direct flight doesn't have enough demand. MNL-JFK is a route that the 77W can't do non-stop.


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#9
zortan

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I've recently stumbled upon something while poking around in FlightAware, which is long distance routes that have a stop over that seems unnecessary for the amount of distance between the two cities. As in, why are these airlines making stops on routes where planes could travel that distance non stop? A few examples below:

JFK to DXB with a stop in MXP (Emirates)
JFK to MNL with a stop in YVR (Philippines)
IAD to ADD with a stop in DUB (Ethiopian)
JFK to ICN with a stop in ANC (Korean Airlines)

Are they trying to get a chance to add more customers? Do they not have the right aircraft and find it easier to just make do with a refueling stop and the planes they have? I discovered that that Korean example is cargo, but it still baffles me. Also, these airlines are getting special permission to fly a leg of the trip that doesn't start or end in their home country, yes? I vaguely remember press about the Emirates example making European carriers mad for squeezing in on their turf.

Whenever I google this question I just get idiotic articles about "what is a layover" so I thought I'd ask. I did find on the Ethiopian wiki a note about a São Paulo to Guangzhou route they added via Lome and ADD, which with a grand total of over 18,000km makes more sense. Anyway I'm a bit nutty when it comes to routes, so thanks for your help in advance :P

MXP is just so that they can put people MXP-JFK. YVR on the MNL route is probably because YVR is now sort of a transpacific hub and YVR-JFK is an underserved route that they'd make money on. DUB stop on the ADD route is because of restrictions at airports, plus i think DUB has somewhat of an Ethiopian population, so that is a good route for them. For the ANC stop, I think they removed it, and when they did it, it was because the old 707s and 747s needed the stop to make the flight.



#10
zortan

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ET is done because the direct flight doesn't have enough demand. MNL-JFK is a route that the 77W can't do non-stop.

it can do nonstop, they just don't because there isn't enough demand. 



#11
zelalemon

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it can do nonstop, they just don't because there isn't enough demand. 

According to wikipedia, the range of a 77W is about 100 miles less than the shortest distance from JFK-MNL, and wikipedia ranges are often more than operational limits. 


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#12
zortan

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According to wikipedia, the range of a 77W is about 100 miles less than the shortest distance from JFK-MNL, and wikipedia ranges are often more than operational limits. 

oh haha whoops my source must have been wrong.






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