29 replies to this topic

[Tump]

KLM is having the same 'problem' that any other airline currently haves; aging planes. This is making me wonder what the KLM fleet would be in lets say, 15 years.

The future of the regional aircraft for the next decade is quite certain: the number of F50s will be slowly decreased while new F70 and F100s will join.
The future of its small aircraft too: 737NGs. KLM has recently placed an order for 737NG, though they havent announced the specific types yet.

The uncertainty is with the long haul fleet. The 747 is slowly becoming old, though it can still fly for KLM for another decade, the 767-300ER is replaced by the A330-200, the 747-300s already have been by 777-200ERs.
KLM will now go operate a fleet of A332, MD11, 744, 772 on long haul routes, but the MD11 and 744 are becoming old.
So far it seems that KLM is having not much interest yet (at least, as long as I can tell as an outsider) in either the 787 and A350. And let alone the A380 and 748.

But in my eyes, I think the fleet will be going to consist of the A330-200, the 777-200ER (also as the MD11 replacement) and I hope the 748 as the 744 replacement. The 748 would seem a much better fit in the fleet than the A380 and is basically the only plane that comes in the range of the 744 and KLMs requirements.

*Also, KLM has announced somewhere that the long haul fleet types will be brought back to a number of 3 different ones, and I think that ones will be it.
**And, before anyone goes and says the following; Air France has nothing to do with the fleet of KLM, with the 'merger' it was decided that KLM will be free to choose its fleet, not Air France. After all, KLM serves a slightly different market in a different region than Air France does.

Anyways, let me hear what you think about KLM and its future long haul fleet.

[WSHNationals]

Well, the A380 makes just as much sense as the 748, with KLM being from Europe. I can see in 10 years KLM's fleet being:

772(getting phased out by 788/789)
332
748/380

[Tiger31]

they most give money to belgian airlines:p they allmost all in problems

lol

i'm looking out for the other A332

[FuriousFalcon]

I can remember reading on an A.net thread that someone for KLM announced that they could fill some A380's on some routes with no problem but here we're talking around 4 aircraft, which is just not economical, and I would go with that, I think the 748 will be the replacement, I can't see the A380 in there and for the MD-11 I think it could be either 787/A350 at the moment with KLM's commitment with both Airbus (for the A332) and Boeing (for the 772ER's) or they could just get more of the Airbus & Boeing's type they already have.
The short-medium haul will remain 737's thats for sure! I don't know much about the Fokkers! I think that's about it
Btw...I don't want to see the day the MD-11's retire

[Atlantic_Air]

MD11's are good planes, and i don't think they should go out of serive yet either

[Vertigo]

Air France - KLM seems to be operating every fleet type. Its great for spotters but it must cost a lot of $$.

[piercey]

just remember - all but four 744s are Combis. Don't expect a 748/A380 order from KLM unless Boeing or Airbus are willing to make a combi

as far as the 787/A350 goes, it's whoever offers the best deal, so look towards Boeing unless a Combi A380 is realesed.

[Tump]

Air France - KLM seems to be operating every fleet type. Its great for spotters but it must cost a lot of $$.

Well, the two still operate as two companies, so basically costs never got any larger, however, they are now able to share maintenance on 737s, 747s, A330s, 777s, Fokker 70/100s......

and remember, both airlines were turning a profit, or were about to turn a profit in the times of the merger, its not like this mixed fleet got them into trouble.

And as Ive stated, both airlines operate slightly different markets in different regions and both choose whats best for the individual airline. Fleet commonality wont always come out as the best solution (though often it does help)



Also piercey, yes KLM 744s are combi's, but I believe often they dont fly in combi configuration but just in all pax config. (correct me if im wrong), so why not get an all pax 748? And who says Boeing wont make a combi? After all, Boeing has often listened to airline requirements.

[Tump]

Also piercey, yes KLM 744s are combi's, but I believe often they dont fly in combi configuration but just in all pax config. (correct me if im wrong), so why not get an all pax 748? And who says Boeing wont make a combi? After all, Boeing has often listened to airline requirements.

Ok I have to correct myself here a little, KLM still does often fly the 744s in combi config. (heard from KLM people myself), and neither the A380 or the 748 seems to be a candidate. KLM would loved to get a new 748 combi (or maybe even an A380 combi), but the problem is, due to regulations/rules its not allowed anymore to build combi planes, at lest not with pax and cargo on the same deck. Has to do with safety/fire-safety issues. If you ask me, a bit of a weird ruling, but it arent the first regulations/rules to make no sense :sniff: .

Now just a wild guess of myself, I think more 777s are the most likely replacements of the current 744s and MD11s. Basically cause of their quite large cargo hold. KLM really makes a lot of money with those combi flights and they really dont want to operate seperate smaller aircraft for cargo and pax. Of course, has to do with efficiency.

Also, for our MD11 lovers, both good and bad news. Rumours say that KLM is stuck with the MD11 cause of a bad leasing deal of which they cant come out with, without losing quite an amount of money. This means KLM is stuck with the MD11s who recently have started to make no more money for KLM. Just for the simple fact that its high costs dont make up for the profits it makes, now the MD11 is just flying routes with a $0 'profit' basically (so not really losing money either....) and apperantly its better of KLM to just keep flying them for a couple of more years.

[Maestro69]

Dont think u will see KLM operate the A380 unless they really need it due to high-capacity routes. I would imagine that KLM could get the B773 to possibly replace the B744s, but then again, it really depends on what the airline needs.

Then again, anything is possible. They may be waiting to see how Air France does with their A380s before making a decision...

[Tump]

An A380 combi would be an idea maybe

Cargo on the lower deck, and around 200(+) passenger on the upperdeck, crazy idea, but maybe in a few years not so crazy anymore

But standard all pax A380 - nope, wont happen (I think)
same for the 748 really....

[Fly_Germany]

there definately wouldnt be a full up seating config 4 the A380 who would want to fly that cattle truck if that happened! it would make the airline who decided 2 do it very unpopular and might lose a few stars there.. but it most likely wont happen, but im confused with the lounges, they have a standard lounges(s) for economy.. you cannot fit 200 ppl in 1 lounge! it would have to be a mall or something to fit that in. And what about the COG with 200 ppl racing to get the first lounge seat! i think lounges will only be in First class and Business for this.

[Tump]

there definately wouldnt be a full up seating config 4 the A380 who would want to fly that cattle truck if that happened! it would make the airline who decided 2 do it very unpopular and might lose a few stars there.. but it most likely wont happen, but im confused with the lounges, they have a standard lounges(s) for economy.. you cannot fit 200 ppl in 1 lounge! it would have to be a mall or something to fit that in. And what about the COG with 200 ppl racing to get the first lounge seat! i think lounges will only be in First class and Business for this.

Hmm I missed out a bit on the point of this post regarding to the rest of the topic :sniff:

Also I dont quite get those arguments about lounges and stuff, last time I looked you didn't got lounge access with just an economy ticket.... and I didnt see all these things happening either with all the full pax 747s that fly today, who have 'only' 100 less seats on board. :eureka:

---

My thoughts about the A380 and KLM, is that KLM will never buy just full pax version, a study of their own fleet renewal dept. revelead there was only need of less than 10 full pax A380 were needed on just a few routes. And with the eye on fleet efficiency and maintenance its just not econical for KLM to go for less than 10 A380s. The A380 would become far more attractive though when there's a combi version offered.

Basically the same applies for the new Boeing 747-800, but KLM already has a lot of experience with 747s, from the 747B and in its basic sense starting the 747-300, from the 747-200SUDs to the recently cut-down time in D check maintenance on 747-400s. Therefor the 747-800 could be seen a more likely candidate, but a combi version on that plane is not possible unfortunatly.

[Bigfoot]

My thoughts;

No 380, the CEO KLM had already announced that it's to big for the KLM.

747-8 Might be a future model for the KLM. They announced and plan on a steady grow of around 4-5% each year. So by the time it's like 2020 they need bigger aircraft. The maintenance is a considerably big factor. KLM M&E is a big one, which is specialist in Boeing models. And I can asure you every new model has GE engines on them as KLM M&E has a special GE engine shop.

777-200ER is turning into the backbone of the long haul fleet. They might add a couple exta on top of the 18 allready ordered/delivered.

The A332 will fill the gap between the 737-900 en the 777-200er.

Don't forget the 747-400ERF. There currently have 3 of them but that number wil grow when the 747 combi's are phased out. If KLM gets a good deal they even replace them by the 747-800F.

The 737 order will be 700, 800 and 900ER as they fly some semi-long-haul's with them. Some F100 flights will be upgrade to a 300/700 type because of the forcasted 4-5% grow.

KLM Cityhopper is looking for F70's, but there isn't even one at the desert in mojave. So as soon as there one for sale they'll buy it. And gratually decrease the ammount of F50.

There are some talks about KLC getting the F70 of Air France regional daughter and Air France will go for some Embrears.

The last couple of years, KLM has gain a sit-back-and-watch-first type of ordering. So it could be that it'll take some time before they order. They first want to know if the aircraft works.

[sawilson1971]

As the industry is getting more cuthroat then KLM should renew its longhaul fleet with a few types as possible. It will soon be possible to cross qualify flight deck crews on most Airbus types. The logical choice would be to renew with A350 and A340/A380. The nature of some of KLMs longhaul routes to former colonies with smaller airports would mean the A380 would not be possible to fly them economically; although the sight of an A380 landing across the beach at Saint Maarten / Princess Juliana would be incredible.

Also remember that KLM is now in Cahoots with Air France. It would make sense for the fleets to be closely mirrored as it would cut down on maintenance/ logistical and operational costs.

As for KLM to aquire further Fokker 50 / 70 / 100s then I think this would be hard due to limited airframes on the market. I believe the Fokkers to be expensive to aquire and operate. The Reikoff restart seems to have come to a standstill. The existing Fokkers must be getting expensive to maintain as the fleet ages. The replacemet in the guise of the A318 would be expensive to operate but it has the plus of being able to operate the 5.5 degree approach into LCY. For me the logical choice would be to renew the fleet of 737s and aquire a small amount of Q400s for regional hops and flights into LCY.

Steve

[Mecanita]

KLM pilots say that KLM is going to replace some 747s by 777s.(they have not decided on which subtype.)

[Tump]

Yep, Ive read/heard the same thing, also makes the most sense.

(btw, Ive read and heard that its most likely the -300 )

[Mecanita]

For all Dutch people:

KLM en Boeing in onderhandeling over 777-300ER's

05-05-2006

AMSTERDAM/DRIEBERGEN-De KLM en Boeing onderhandelen over de conversie van 777-200ER-orders naar 777-300ER’s. Op de Boeing-site wordt zelfs al gemeld dat KLM al drie firm orders voor drie van deze long-haul toestellen zou hebben geplaatst, maar dit blijkt op een misverstand te berusten, zo meldt Boeing aan Luchtvaartnieuws / Zakenreisnieuws. “Er zijn bij mijn weten nog geen definitieve contracten getekend”, aldus een woordvoerster.

KLM heeft bij het plaatsen van de order voor 777-200ER's de optie bedongen om indien gewenst de order om te zetten in -300ER’s. Het valt te verwachten dat de orderconversie binnenkort officieel bekend wordt gemaakt.

De lange -300ER (bijna 74 meter) heeft een maximum vliegbereik van 14.495 kilometer - tegen 14.316 kilometer voor de -200ER. Het grootste verschil tussen beide toestellen zit in de capaciteit. De 777-300ER kan met 378 stoelen aanzienlijk meer passagiers vervoeren dan de 777-200ER, die in KLM-uitvoering 327 stoelen heeft.

This is the article as will be/is on Luchtvaartnieuws.nl.

KLM is in talks with Boeing to convert options for the 777-200ER in orders for -300ERs.

[Tump]

Yep, read it too.

I guess its now almost certain that the B744 (at least for a part of it) replacement is the 773 Made the most sense anyway...

[rogier]

Hi there!

The latest news about the 777-300ER is that there will be 8 ordered. Three of them conversions from the current order of 772ER, 5 of them thru ILFC, the first 3 where supposed to go to AF, but KLM was supposed to be needing them more urgently, the other 2 were not placed by ILFC yet...
The first three are confirmed, the other five not yet.

At the moment KLM has 25 747's, including 3 ERF's, 17 combi's and 5 all-pax.
This december a 4th ERF will be delivered. AFAIK the current order for the first 3 773ER's is an expansion, NOT a replacement. Also, recently KLM ordered an extra A330, no 9. However, KLM still has options for a total of 24 and it is expected that shortly the A330 fleet will grow till at least 16. So quite some growth...

From the European front, KLM just received another 738 last week and there is one more coming this year. This year KLM will also place an order for a replacement of the 733 and 734, but nothing sure about that one yet.

Furthermore the MD-11's are staying at least till 2015, maybe 2017, and this winter they will receive an interior-update including IFE with AVOD, like in the A330/772ER.

So the longhaul fleet in the coming years:

744pax/combi 22
744ERF 4
772ER 15
773ER 3 (8?)
MD-11 10
A330 9