49 replies to this topic

[wdleiser]

"When you try to please everybody, you end up pleasing nobody." This is true with our funding system. The U.S. never had an official flag carrier, although we did have two airlines who were considered the national airlines (NW and Pan Am). Because of this, we provide funding to all people, rather than one airline. This stops airlines from going out of business.

May I ask when was NW every known as the national airline? It wasn't until later on in the 80's when it changed from Northwest Orient into Northwest Airlines and that was after numerous mergers and buyouts. TWA and Pan Am had international rights prior to deregulation if I recall. United became all big and mighty after Pan Am fell.

[AASuper80]

Never. The only one was American and at this point after 9/11 the two flags are American (#1) and United (#2)

[TorqueWrench]

As a british person...

American Airways is the national airline for the USA... thats just how i've grown up thinking... thats how i'll always go on thinking...

[VC-10]

I think of United being the flag carrier, purely because my mum flew a lot with them to the US and she got me a little model 744.

I notice that the UK and other major countries are not on that list, unless you count the Faukland Isles (or I am being blind)

My parent have 2 cars. One is a VW Golf Estate (Jetta Wagon in the US I think) and the other is a Peaugeot 807 MPV (not sold in the US). Both are Diesel and the 807 does 35 MPG and the Golf 50 MPG. Our old car, a Toyota Land Cruiser (sp?) did 20 MPG maximum. It was also diesel. The 807 saves us a huge amount of fuel when we go on long journeys, and is quite comfortable (unlike the Toyota).
The reasons for bying a huge SUV are often quoted as being saftey and driving position. A MPV has a high driving position, and many have 5* in the Euro NCAP Crash tests. I think the 'safest' car on US roads is the SAAB 9-3, but I could be wrong.
I think that SUVs are only justified in places where the roads are very poor, and where a normal car would not get through, or places where a normal car often gets destroyed by the weather, like on some Caribbean Islands (Cayman for example)

[StephenM]

I think there should be a price for the worst post for going off topic, and this should get it.

My 2 cents - It is illegal for Governments in the EU to prop up carriers, and that should be extended to the US, as said above there is no point in having market oversaturation as it simply will not work.

[AASuper80]

As a british person...

American Airways is the national airline for the USA... thats just how i've grown up thinking... thats how i'll always go on thinking...

American Airlines:D is the national airline more than United ever will be:) i dont particularly think that United has its spot light anymore its mostly AA.

[TorqueWrench]

American Airlines is the national airline more than United ever will be i dont particularly think that United has its spot light anymore its mostly AA.

Can i just ask you to take a bias test... AASuper80?

[aerospaceair]

Probably some bad times could come if the funding for DL stopped. When looking at the flights in/out of Atlanta, a large majority of them are DL. If they went under, it would kill the metro area especially my area in Peachtree City where a possible majority of them live in Georgia. Overall though, I can't really see why people come to Georgia. To see the stone bump in the ground? Atlanta does serve as a major international connector for the southeast.

[TorqueWrench]

I can't really see why people come to Georgia.

They come to see the coke-cola factory and work for Delta dont they?

[AeroLinear]

and don't forget stone mountain

anyway, about the emissions things, an interesting factoid i picked up somewhere is that when a medium-sized volcano erupts it does about 10x the polluting the entire population of earth does in 10 years during one eruption. Kind of interesting

[EXTspotter]

Yea, but before humans were about, the atmosphere could handle that without major weather phenomenon. It is this amount plus the amount brought on by humans that does the damage.

I blame GWB and the American Govt. You can blame China and India all you want, but if you were in their situation, what would you do with 1 Billion people to provide power and transportation to in a very small period of time?

[Concagh98]

America should stop funding it's airlines-especially since their just hiding from the inevetable decimation of airlines. The reason why a lot of european countries had state owned airlines was in case their airline went bust and there would be no way for their people to get around. This is not going to happen here.

[bolli]

This must be a record for the oldest thread dug up?

[sviridovt]

America should stop funding it's airlines-especially since their just hiding from the inevetable decimation of airlines. The reason why a lot of european countries had state owned airlines was in case their airline went bust and there would be no way for their people to get around. This is not going to happen here.

agree, but then there is an issue of size of each country and the ammount of large cities. Many European cities have only one or two large cities which become hubs to its national carriers, while in US there are at least 10 major cities, thus airlines are more spread out making sure that most major cities get served. Plus with all of the mergers it will come down to only 4 legacy carriers in US: Delta, American, United, and US Airways (which I personally think will merge or go bust soon), and LCC's, well I never fly them so I dont care but my view on LCC's is that they clog the US domestic market, making it unprofitable, so if they go bust the airline market will become profitable again. The way I see it is that LCC's should go, because while I understand that some people cant afford legacy carriers, but those LCC's clog the domestic market making it unprofitable.

What I think US really needs is a 4 or 5 star airline for people that want to travel normally and not have to pay for absolutely everything, because traveling in US domestic market now, is like a bus ride in the air traveling some 30,000 feet at speed of 750 MPH

[n.x.w.m]

What I think US really needs is a 4 or 5 star airline for people that want to travel normally and not have to pay for absolutely everything, because traveling in US domestic market now, is like a bus ride in the air traveling some 30,000 feet at speed of 750 MPH

Bus ride at 32,000 feet = . What you are talking about on the US 4-5 star airline idea, I think that is a great idea for airlines WHO SHOULD TAKE UP THE IDEA.

[Concagh98]

I have found out the reason why america keeps funding its doomed airline: when Pan Am folded in 1991, there was a lot of criticism about how the US. government could let such a massive and iconic airline just "die" like hat. So their runing scared.

[Mr Tree]

This must be a record for the oldest thread dug up?

Another newcomer digging up old threads. Oh well, it doesn't matter now.

[violetQueen]

I think the US gov't should force the merger of UA, DL and AA and force them to take the name "American World Airways" and provide the highest quality service in the world and be run by the president.

No... seriously... deregulation was one of the best things to occur to US air travel. Svir, I think you're wrong. If you've ever flown jetBlue (a lcc) or Delta (a legacy) the service on jetBlue is considerably BETTER than the legacy. In-fact, this occured in the 90s. The lcc's came along and had nothing but low prices to offer, so the legacies cut their prices, the lcc's then had to offer better, unique, service. WN actually had one of the highest qualities of service in the 90s, and B6 came along in 2000 and brought another era. The legacies have been BEHIND the lcc's for service level in the domestic market for years.

On top of that, flying between JFK and IAD or CLT or PIT or ORD or anywhere with jetBlue is better than flying ANYWHERE in Europe... if you want to bring up a bus-ride at 30,000ft, try flying with FR or U2 or LH, I've never been on a bus with a PTV in the seat or AOD... AOD is the best you'll get in Europe unless you're willing to pay U2 for a hand-held DVD player.

The US carriers lag behind in service quality on long-haul routes but that is because the carriers that had the experience have gone bust. PA and TW had two of the best service levels because they'd competed with the foreign carriers for decades. US carriers are playing catch-up on that front but ONLY that front. The rest of the world needs to catch up the US carriers on regional services.

My 2 cents.

[sviridovt]

I think the US gov't should force the merger of UA, DL and AA and force them to take the name "American World Airways" and provide the highest quality service in the world and be run by the president.

No... seriously... deregulation was one of the best things to occur to US air travel. Svir, I think you're wrong. If you've ever flown jetBlue (a lcc) or Delta (a legacy) the service on jetBlue is considerably BETTER than the legacy. In-fact, this occured in the 90s. The lcc's came along and had nothing but low prices to offer, so the legacies cut their prices, the lcc's then had to offer better, unique, service. WN actually had one of the highest qualities of service in the 90s, and B6 came along in 2000 and brought another era. The legacies have been BEHIND the lcc's for service level in the domestic market for years.

On top of that, flying between JFK and IAD or CLT or PIT or ORD or anywhere with jetBlue is better than flying ANYWHERE in Europe... if you want to bring up a bus-ride at 30,000ft, try flying with FR or U2 or LH, I've never been on a bus with a PTV in the seat or AOD... AOD is the best you'll get in Europe unless you're willing to pay U2 for a hand-held DVD player.

The US carriers lag behind in service quality on long-haul routes but that is because the carriers that had the experience have gone bust. PA and TW had two of the best service levels because they'd competed with the foreign carriers for decades. US carriers are playing catch-up on that front but ONLY that front. The rest of the world needs to catch up the US carriers on regional services.

My 2 cents.

well legacies are still more reliable then LCC's because they are less likely to go bust, and even if they do they are likely to merge rather then just vanish. And one thing that I think you would agree with me is that domestic market is too overcrowded making it hard to make profit, and PA's and TW's quest to have high quality service is where they failed, because US domestic market is barely profitable as is (if profitable at all), and spending money on service for domestic flight would not justify it self.

Where LCC's get the edge is that because they operate generally from airports that are cheaper and their maintenance costs are lower plus they have allot more extra fees (yes, I know that SWA doesnt charge for baggage) meaning they are more justifiable (after all, legacies prefer to make money on domestic flights since they mostly make money on international flights, while LCC's have to make profit because they dont operate long trans atlantic flights).

[violetQueen]

PA's and TW's quest to have high quality service is where they failed

Incorrect, PA's lack of a domestic structure feeding its inter-continental network is where it failed. The only domestic services PA had were acquired through National which was a miss-match (miami base) when PA was primarily JFK or LAX. Oops.

TW's failure was with Carl Ichan, not its service quality. Tell me Svir, how an airline can succeed when 70% of its seats are being sold by a travel company it has no shares in, at 40% ticket price? LMAO. That is the reason for TW's demise, the airline was actually making money before then.

I suggest you read up on the history of PA and TW before you make silly comments like that, their high quality service was why people used them to the very end.

Svir... if the US domestic service is unprofitable tell me why airlines like American and Delta have 600+ aircraft serving JUST the US domestic service? B6 makes profits and they are hardly a low cost airline, low fares YES but low cost? no... they offer a higher quality of service with a lower cost base than the legacies, but a higher cost base than WN. I disagree that the US domestic market is overcrowded, you should've been around five or ten years ago when all those little RJ services were flown by widebodied DC-10s and L1011s... I think the US domestic market is under utilized by some carriers.

legacies are still more reliable then LCC's because they are less likely to go bust

Someone should tell that to Pan Am (all its incarnations), TW, DL, UA, CO, US, BN, EA, NW... who all went through chapter 11 or went bust. Now you tell me how many of the big LCCs went through Ch11? WN? B6? mmmmhmm, I would feel safer flying a LCC than a Legacy in some cases Svir. Chapter 11 is a last resort, that means a company's bankruptcy is imminent... I wouldn't feel so safe flying a carrier in Ch11...

I believe American is the only legacy that has not yet Ch11'd.