40 replies to this topic

[TNT88]

It's a case of "things doesn't always go as planned and now I'm pissed".

[mariowebbocious]

I think it's a case of "I want you to be in my realm. And period."

[Pineair]

You have to accept that game players will often be more ruthless than in real life. You play by the rules. If people want a world where you can fly a maximum 12-14 hours a day for short haul and say 16-18 hours long haul then why not ask if it csn be tried in a special world. Same perhaps with wages a you could set a minimum wage.

[TNT88]

You have to accept that game players will often be more ruthless than in real life. You play by the rules. If people want a world where you can fly a maximum 12-14 hours a day for short haul and say 16-18 hours long haul then why not ask if it csn be tried in a special world. Same perhaps with wages a you could set a minimum wage.

Wages is way lower in other countries outside the US. In Indonesia most FA for LCC earn IDR 10,000,000 a month Which is way better than most office worker. But it's translate to USD 4.8 per hour if they work 160 hours a month. So actually, the game system is not as realistic as people said. The minimum wage needed to be lower.

[mariowebbocious]

Wages is way lower in other countries outside the US. In Indonesia most FA for LCC earn IDR 10,000,000 a month Which is way better than most office worker. But it's translate to USD 4.8 per hour if they work 160 hours a month. So actually, the game system is not as realistic as people said. The minimum wage needed to be lower.

 

It is not about the minimum wage. It is about different country has different economy standard.

[Talamare]

Basically, if there was some malus to it then there would be choices

 

If the game was programmed that if you flight over 90 hours a week, you pay 2% additional maintenance per hour over 90. Then you would need to consider if going over is worth it.

If On Time bar had a bigger impact on the game when it comes to determining how much people are willing to pay for your tickets. Then you would need to consider how many hours you should use.

 

However, at the moment what's presented it...

 

There is $140 on a table, you're told you may take it all, no consequences; and we will put more money to a max of $140 every single day.

Your only intelligent move is to take every possible $ every day. So people do.

[Book Siberia]

First of all, spamming is not the correct term to use in the context of this game - ever!

Let's examine all the relevant factors more closely to see why this is so.  

 

Item 1: The Dev deliberately created exactly the game he wanted to build.  

AE is a free-market capital simulation game with an airline management context, in which the intent was to foster intense competition in a non-regulated operating environment.  The goal is simple:  Your job is to build an airline from the ground up and compete with the goal of deriving total market valuation as rapidly as possible and as high as possible and to be ranked on that basis.

Players are free to use as many planes as they want in whatever configuration that they want within the constraints of total seats for the plane type(s) chosen.

Players are given the opportunity to configure IFS and IFE however they want   Players are expected to compete however they want to compete  - anything the game allows is fair game.  As such, competition is often brutal and sometimes devastating.  But everyone starts out on the same footing, give or take their initial choices as to what home country to operate in, where to HQ, and so on.

 

Item 2: The Dev generously donates server time and resources to make the game operative at no cost to anyone except himself.   In other words this game is absolutely free to play for everyone, and there are a large number of game worlds to choose from, and you can play in as many or as few as you wish.

Anytime you criticize the Dev about the game or complain about the game, you are disrespecting that Dev and the game itself - especially when you demand that the Dev take action or change some feature.  If you do request a feature change, you should do so politely and you should be unsurprised when the Dev says no - which he does 99.9% of the time.

 

Item 3: When a player asks for help, and you know the answer, do not bring your biases and prejudices into your answer.  If a new player asks about such things such as best IFS to use, and by best he means the best possible configuration that will maximally contribute to total market valuation, do NOT call it scamming or suggest that players that use it are scamming.  Understand and acknowledge that this game has nothing to do with the real world nor does the game pander to such in any way.  Above all, never disparage other players for any reason - don't use the term spamliner when spamming doesn't actually exist.  Legal moves are just that - legal.  End of story.

 

Item 4: Everyone has heard the term "unsportsman-like behavior"  and understands the idea.  The relevant corollary in AE is "ungamesman-like behavior"  and those engaging in it should be at least temporarially suspended from the game after a few warnings.

 

Above all, disparaging players for their play-style should absolutely be treated as ungamesman-like behavior

[TNT88]

It is not about the minimum wage. It is about different country has different economy standard.

That's sort of my point isn't it? It's pretty obvious that the system is not realistic. So I don't understand why people complain about it.

[mariowebbocious]

That's sort of my point isn't it? It's pretty obvious that the system is not realistic. So I don't understand why people complain about it.

 

And that's my point as well on my previous post.

Why complain for something that the game developer deliberately made for?

[Talamare]

Wages is way lower in other countries outside the US. In Indonesia most FA for LCC earn IDR 10,000,000 a month Which is way better than most office worker. But it's translate to USD 4.8 per hour if they work 160 hours a month. So actually, the game system is not as realistic as people said. The minimum wage needed to be lower.

It's not about higher or lower

 

Employees were designed with the intent of being a financial burden to reduce expansion, currently they aren't performing that task at all.

To fix it is simple really, he just needs to increase attrition rate. 

 

Paying an Executive who is expecting $200/hr only $200/wk (assuming 30 hour work week). Should result in 100% attrition, not 6%.

[TNT88]

It's not about higher or lower

 

Employees were designed with the intent of being a financial burden to reduce expansion, currently they aren't performing that task at all.

To fix it is simple really, he just needs to increase attrition rate. 

 

Paying an Executive who is expecting $200/hr only $200/wk (assuming 30 hour work week). Should result in 100% attrition, not 6%.

Well. $200 a week might sound realistic in some country. It would created 0% attrition. And no, it's not being created to be burden for airlines. 

[konj1]

Wages is way lower in other countries outside the US. In Indonesia most FA for LCC earn IDR 10,000,000 a month Which is way better than most office worker. But it's translate to USD 4.8 per hour if they work 160 hours a month. So actually, the game system is not as realistic as people said. The minimum wage needed to be lower.

Why so definitely outside US? I've read that many regional airline co-pilots in US get less than $20k / year, some even as low as $15k, and can't pay off their student debt, I can't imagine such low wages for pilots in (too) unionized Europe because even bus drivers in some parts of Eastern Europe earn as much as that.

 

I'm saying, your point with less developed economies is correct, but USA is not the only high income country in the world and the rest of the world is not Indonesia.

 

 

And I think $200/week for an executive anywhere in the world for a company that is able to fly something as big as one ATR is not imaginable.

 

The model should be thoroughly changed, don't defend the current ridiculous situation. Wages must be a more realistic burden for airlines, yes, there might be even lower minimum if you adapt it to low-income economy, but there's no way it should stay as it is.

[Talamare]

Well. $200 a week might sound realistic in some country. It would created 0% attrition. And no, it's not being created to be burden for airlines. 

 

I'm talking about game design. They serve no purpose in the game other than to reduce how much money you make. That's a built in burden, a gold sink.

Also, no one cares about realism when it comes to this subject. To incorporate realism would involve such an insane level of research, and require such an insane level of programming. It's not feasible.

 

This is a simple gold sink mechanic that isn't performing its duty because the punishment rate is far too low.

[TNT88]

I'm talking about game design. They serve no purpose in the game other than to reduce how much money you make. That's a built in burden, a gold sink.

Also, no one cares about realism when it comes to this subject. To incorporate realism would involve such an insane level of research, and require such an insane level of programming. It's not feasible.

 

This is a simple gold sink mechanic that isn't performing its duty because the punishment rate is far too low.

Well that's the problem lies. Wages in majority parts of the world is different. So, do we follow the highest one, the median, or the lowest one? You can't just said it's too easy because there is no rules on how low/high the wages on This game should be. 

[TNT88]

Why so definitely outside US? I've read that many regional airline co-pilots in US get less than $20k / year, some even as low as $15k, and can't pay off their student debt, I can't imagine such low wages for pilots in (too) unionized Europe because even bus drivers in some parts of Eastern Europe earn as much as that.

 

I'm saying, your point with less developed economies is correct, but USA is not the only high income country in the world and the rest of the world is not Indonesia.

 

 

And I think $200/week for an executive anywhere in the world for a company that is able to fly something as big as one ATR is not imaginable.

 

The model should be thoroughly changed, don't defend the current ridiculous situation. Wages must be a more realistic burden for airlines, yes, there might be even lower minimum if you adapt it to low-income economy, but there's no way it should stay as it is.

 

My solution for this matter if the team want to waste their time on this is to put 2 or 3 tier wages for countries. Countries like the US, Canada, Japan, Singapore, Australia, or the UK would be on tier 1 which have higher minimum wages. While tier 2 would be like Indonesia, Russia, Philippines, Mexico, or Malaysia. And then the lowest tier would be Gambia, Bangladesh, Uganda, or Kyrgyzstan.

 

Btw, majority part of the world have low minimum wages. So, countries like the US is minority.

[Talamare]

Well that's the problem lies. Wages in majority parts of the world is different. So, do we follow the highest one, the median, or the lowest one? You can't just said it's too easy because there is no rules on how low/high the wages on This game should be. 

 

There is no problem, you don't follow any.

You set relatively arbitrary values intended primarily for game balance.

 

Again, to incorporate balanced and realistic values would require an insane amount of research and programming that adds very little to core gameplay. 

[LJ Aviation]

Spamliners are annoying but they are easy to beat

[PiggyWhiskey]

How would you say they're easy to beat?

[TNT88]

There is no problem, you don't follow any.

You set relatively arbitrary values intended primarily for game balance.

 

Again, to incorporate balanced and realistic values would require an insane amount of research and programming that adds very little to core gameplay. 

Isn't that what most members want?

[bAnderson]

There is no problem, you don't follow any.

You set relatively arbitrary values intended primarily for game balance.

 

Again, to incorporate balanced and realistic values would require an insane amount of research and programming that adds very little to core gameplay. 

But what you have failed to realize is how much it actually does add.

 

Even little things like scheduling will increase the amount of gameplay by 100%. Yes, the point of the game is to make money, but another point is that you're supposed to simulate running an airline. Spamliners are not simulating a real world airline, or are at least not suffering the consequences a real-world airline would if it existed. 

 

For example, Spirit is the lowest US airline on basis of Skytrax Rankings. The only way it makes money is to provide dirt-cheap prices, which is why it has to stay a relatively small airline. A simple change they could make to increase their reputation would be to remove two rows of seats to give the rest of the passengers more legroom. Otherwise they are a quite normal airline.

 

Another thing about wages:

No executive of an airline would work or apply for a job if they were working for $7 an hour.

No manager of an airline would work or apply for a job if they were working for $7 an hour.

No pilot would work for or apply for a job at an airline if they were being paid for $7 and hour.

 

A pilot would never pay off any debt, it's already hard enough to live on $60,000 a year as a pilot, at $7,000 a year they could not do anything. 

 

At LEAST these three positions should have a decent minimum cap. Maybe $400,000 a year for executives, $80 an hour for managers, and above $45 an hour for pilots. However the current system is not very good as you have to decide a median pay rate, and it is not dependent on aircraft type. Obviously an airline running Caravans (Southern Airways Express...) should be paying less than an all-747 airline.